D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

Ratskinner

Adventurer
If you can't understand the huge difference in player agency validity that results from WHEN content is created by the DM, then I suspect you will never get my point.
Barring any clues the PCs are given ahead of time, AFAICT, there is no difference beyond what the time the DM makes it up. Most of the old school dungeoneering I've done is rife with "let's make deal" blind choices. I don't see any real player agency behind "which door do choose" if all the doors are effectively giant question marks. Replace "door" with "hex" and the same is true for most of what I've seen called "sandbox" play.

So long as whatever the party discovers meets reasonable consistency with the established fiction (allowing for bad information, etc.) I can't see what difference it makes if the DM made up the results three days ago or three seconds ago.

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Corwin

Explorer
The timeline is what happens only if the PCs (in effect) do nothing. The point isn't to project what the PCs will do, or how they'll do it, but instead to give a suggested sequence of events (if any) that'll reasonably happen if the PCs take too long.
Just to be clear, is your reply to me a refutation that complaints, such as the example I provided, would occur?

It could also be used - and has been, in some modules - as a guideline for 'what' happens 'when' even if the PCs get bang at it; even if it's someting so simple as "At any mealtimes the BBEG will be in area 6; at night she sleeps in area 15; otherwise on day 1 she will be found in areas 13-15, on Day 2 she'll be surveying the final construction of the UberWeapon in area 18, and on Day 3 she'll be in areas 13-15 until noon after which she'll proceed to area 18 to oversee the initial test procedure..."
By your own admission, modules have been doing this throughout D&D's long, illustrious history. So I'm not sure what's all that "new" about your ideas here. Heck, CoS does this exact thing. Are you basically suggesting that every module would be served by such an if-then outline? IMX, very few things are universally a good idea.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I would never think that a published adventure including some guidance for the DM to be a bad thing, so when folks mention that the adventures should comment on the possibility or risk of rest in a certain area, or how monsters react to a PC incursion, and other things like that, I'm all for it.

But don't most modules do that? I'm away from my books right now, but I'm reasonably sure that this kind of info is offered.
 

Corwin

Explorer
I would never think that a published adventure including some guidance for the DM to be a bad thing, so when folks mention that the adventures should comment on the possibility or risk of rest in a certain area, or how monsters react to a PC incursion, and other things like that, I'm all for it.

But don't most modules do that? I'm away from my books right now, but I'm reasonably sure that this kind of info is offered.
I think this thread has turned into a unicorn hunt at this point.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I just wish they would have divorced class from role, tied powers to power sources instead of class,
I think the fanbase equated class to what 4e formalized as Source more so than to Role, while it seems from the design that they expected a more equal weight, that class would exist at the intersection of Source & Role, rather than be primarily about Source.

Class taking the place of source would have meant fewer classes and less sheer space devoted to powers. Leaving Role to 'build' (sub-class) decisions might have opened up some loopholes, but it could have been a better way to go.

matched flavor to mechanics, and used 5E like magic items, feats, and bounded accuracy.
I'm not as jazzed about bounded accuracy as most people, 5e just scales with tremendous hp/damage bloat, instead, so it's not that big a deal - and, while it's fine for balancing combat at various levels, it's not so fine for anything that's going to turn on d20 rolls, instead. :shrug:


To me 5E is almost that game, but then I also feel like it took a few steps back as well.
It's a big call back to the classic game, which gives it a tremendous appeal to us long-time fans, and to returning fans - and, probably, to any new would-be fans who are into that sense of history and getting in on the 'real' thing.

If you can't understand the huge difference in player agency validity that results from WHEN content is created by the DM, then I suspect you will never get my point.
"The Forge," call the style of play in which the DM fills in what he wants regardless of player decisions, 'Illusionism,' and are /really/ down on it as WrongBadFun of the lowest order. So you're not alone in your opinion.

I think it can be a very legitimate technique, though, especially in a game like 5e D&D or AD&D where the DM is given a great deal of latitude to make rulings and has more responsibility for the quality of the play experience as a result of being Empowered.

Pacing is certainly one area where 'illusionism' can be very helpful. The DM can choose to mod the game so that it works with varied pacing, to make rulings to take the current environment & pacing into account, or to force the optimal pacing some of the time via such techniques. It's an extra layer of flexibility that the game leaves open. It's just that the first option would be a tremendous amount of re-design work; the second, while very consistent with 5e philosophy, is never so much as alluded to as a valid option; and the third seems to be resented by some segments of the player base.

IMHO, DMs don't need WotC's permission to go ahead and rule whether/when rests are possible and/or that they take more or less time in some situations than others. But the resistance I've seen in this thread makes me think maybe a nod to the concept in the PH wouldn't have hurt, so that players don't think of resting as a right or law of physics, but as just another case of players declaring actions (we stop and rest ) and the DM narrating results (you get such-and-such benefits or "you are attacked by wandering Pit Fiends" or whatever).
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Just to be clear, is your reply to me a refutation that complaints, such as the example I provided, would occur?
In general, while there'll always be those who complain about anything, I think adding this sort of thing in would reduce the complaints overall rather than increase them.

By your own admission, modules have been doing this throughout D&D's long, illustrious history.
SOME modules have. Not all, and by no means enough.
So I'm not sure what's all that "new" about your ideas here. Heck, CoS does this exact thing.
Good to hear. I haven't read it and thus didn't realize this.
Are you basically suggesting that every module would be served by such an if-then outline? IMX, very few things are universally a good idea.
Offhand I can't think of any module that would be made worse by having an if-then outline or a development track; though as I noted before such things would be more beneficial to some modules than others.

Lanefan
 

Corwin

Explorer
In general, while there'll always be those who complain about anything, I think adding this sort of thing in would reduce the complaints overall rather than increase them.
My guess runs counter to yours. I wonder if that means anything...

SOME modules have. Not all, and by no means enough.
By your estimation.

Good to hear. I haven't read it and thus didn't realize this.
I'm willing to put hard earned dollars there are a lot of modules, released over D&D's long life, that you haven't read. Yet you are willing to speak to them all and what they should have in them.

Offhand I can't think of any module that would be made worse by having an if-then outline or a development track; though as I noted before such things would be more beneficial to some modules than others.
But since you haven't read them all, hard to say for sure...
 

jrowland

First Post
If you can't understand the huge difference in player agency validity that results from WHEN content is created by the DM, then I suspect you will never get my point.

The truth is, as a player, you cannot know if the DM just made it up, read it from a module, or pre-wrote content. If you do know, you are cheating (reading DMs notes or module)
 

shoak1

Banned
Banned
The truth is, as a player, you cannot know if the DM just made it up, read it from a module, or pre-wrote content. If you do know, you are cheating (reading DMs notes or module)
With all due respect, if you think players don't know if their DM is a "decide when u get there" kind of guy, you're kidding yourself. The majority of the players I have met don't like that kind of DMing, because it makes it all about the DM.

I predesign my encounters, balance them, then when the players get to the encounter, I am free to take off my DM hat and play the monsters in an adversarial role. Rulings are done by our rules guy, who happens to be a player. Later, after the encounter is finished (or further down the road if there are spoilers), I show interested players my materials so they can see why what happened happened, what they could have done differently, and so they can evaluate the balance of the encounter. They award me "DM points" that I can cash in later for drms and such, based on the coolness of the encounters, its balance, etc. Conversely I award them hero points in a likewise fashion.

If we have a sufficiently sized group, I usually have a separate person play the monsters. I don't want my necessary impartiality as a DM to come into conflict with my roleplaying/combat tactics of the bad guys. If we don't have enough peeps for a separate monster guy, I try to predesignate (in writing) their strategies and contingencies so as to avoid that conflict of interest.
 
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Imaro

Legend
With all due respect, if you think players don't know if their DM is a "decide when u get there" kind of guy, you're kidding yourself. The majority of the players I have met don't like that kind of DMing, because it makes it all about the DM.

I predesign my encounters, balance them, then when the players get to the encounter, I am free to take off my DM hat and play the monsters in an adversarial role. Rulings are done by our rules guy, who happens to be a player. Later, after the encounter is finished (or further down the road if there are spoilers), I show interested players my materials so they can see why what happened happened, what they could have done differently, and so they can evaluate the balance of the encounter. They award me "DM points" that I can cash in later for drms and such, based on the coolness of the encounters, its balance, etc. Conversely I award them hero points in a likewise fashion.

If we have a sufficiently sized group, I usually have a separate person play the monsters. I don't want my necessary impartiality as a DM to come into conflict with my roleplaying/combat tactics of the bad guys. If we don't have enough peeps for a separate monster guy, I try to predesignate (in writing) their strategies and contingencies so as to avoid that conflict of interest.

Just curious... what do you do when the players take a route you hadn't anticipated?
 

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