D&D 5E I think WotC has it backwards (re: story arcs)

Mercurius

Legend
[MENTION=22260]TerraDave[/MENTION], I hear your anguish, but...well, [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] said it already. But here's the thing, as I said in the OP, there are new ways and angles to discuss this stuff. That's what online are for, to a large extent.

Also, on every forum there are daily participants who get tired of seeing more occasional participants or newbies come in and post the same old questions. I'd call it the "Use the Search Function, Newb!" phenomena. But again, what are these forums for, anyhow?

That said, I wouldn't mind a sub-forum for "meta-discussion" of D&D the brand, where it is going, that sort of thing. Take it up with [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION].
 

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delericho

Legend
On topic: Yes, I would like to see a much fuller and more diverse product line, including more smaller adventures, standalone adventures, sourcebooks, and (especially) the return of Dungeon. I have no idea whether that would make WotC more money - given that D&D is currently "on a tear", I would expect not. :)
 


I fully understand that many would like to see more setting material. Fair enough. I don't share the desire, but I can recognize the need. That said, I don't quite understand the other often-stated complaint about Wizard's present focus on Adventure Paths. Many say that they would like shorter dungeons and modules that they could incorporate into an ongoing campaign. Isn't that what they are in essence providing? When I read the Tyranny of Dragons AP, I viewed each chapter as a potential adventure that I could co-opt. While many of the chapters aren't really appropriate for my present campaign, three or four would work quite well with a little bit of work. Yes, it would take some work; but that would also be true for any smaller stand-alone adventure that would be published.
 
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Parmandur

Book-Friend
I fully understand that many would like to see more setting material. Fair enough. I don't share the desire, but I can recognize the need. That said, I don't quite understand the other often-stated complaint about Wizard's present focus of Adventure Paths. Many say that they would like shorter dungeons and modules that they could incorporate into an ongoing campaign. Isn't that what they are in essence providing? When I read the Tyranny of Dragons AP, I viewed each chapter as a potential adventure that I could co-opt. While many of the chapters aren't really appropriate for my present campaign, three or four would work quite well with a little bit of work. Yes, it would take some work; but that would also be true for any smaller stand-alone adventure that would be published.


Easier to separate them than put them together.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I appreciate the intention to focus on the story. Clearly D&Dis about story. But as we see one story arc roll out after another, I can't help but feel they have it a bit backwards - or at least are taking a very narrow, limited approach that will eventually prove problematic. Theproblem now is that you have two options: either run the story arcs, one after the other, or do your own thing. There's no middle ground. Even if they are serving new DMs by providing them with clear story arcs, or DMs that like to run only pre-published material, not only are they ignoring the many DMs who want material to use in their campaigns, but eventually some of those "story arc DMs" are going to tire of doing story arcs and want to do something else, whether it is running a more episodic campaign with pre-published modules, or a more guided approach to creating their own stories.

Then there's the potential problem of having a bad apple in the bunch - one bad story arc and that's a whole year between good stories. Imaginee the ruckus, the chaos, the armageddon!

Anyhow, the obvious question is this: What's the middle ground? It is simple, really, and involves two areas that can be linked together thematically with one product line. Imagine this:

A campaign setting book that is thematic and regional - like the Underdark, or the Dalelands, or the Crystalmist Mountains, etc. The book is part of an existing world, but gives guidelines for customizing it or adding it to your campaign world, or at least mining it for ideas. Then you have a second book of adventures, site locations, and encounters - running the gamut from one page encounters to full-on modules, even with guidelines on how to create a meta-story. Alternately they could publish only somewhat-generic theme settings like the Underdark, or a woodland region unattached to any known setting but that could be plopped into any homebrew world.

My issue with WotC's approach is that they aren't creating a backdrop for their stories. Sure, we all know about the Forgotten Realms and they're providing setting info on a "need to know" basis, but without actual product the stories end up feeling like they're set in old western towns with surface-thin set pieces. Unless you own older Realms product and are comfortable with adapting other adventures and/or creating your own, you're pretty much stuck within the confines of the published story arc. Now many of us are comfortable, but some are not, and some who are comfortable but with busy schedules (such as myself) would still like new material to work with.

It doesn't even have to be the old campaign setting book approach. What about a detailed Underdark book that can be adapted to any setting, then with a book of adventures for that setting? Or what about a box set? Why not a Sword Coast book to use for the "gaps between" the story arcs being set there, with a book of "further adventures in the Sword Coast" for those finished with the story arcs or wanting something more episodic?

Anyhow, my point is that there's a huge gap in what WotC is offering. I understand the reasons why, but I don't think it is all that sustainable - at least if they want 5E to "thrive and not just survive."

And I know: this has been discussed before. But hopefully I brought some new angles to the conversation, if only old wine in a new jug. And I know: we don't know WotC's plans. But maybe, just maybe, if we put some ideas out there, it will in some way influence their path forward. I mean it, it is our path, our story, after all.


Maybe surveys showed that their entire customer base, with only a few outliers, were on one side or another? If only a small fraction of consumers want that middle ground, with everyone else falling into DIY or AP camps, this is the smart move.
 

Staffan

Legend
As I do not play MMO's, could you elaborate?

In World of Warcraft, at least, a "dungeon" is a small-ish group activity meant for five players. It usually has 3-5 bosses, some "trash" in between them, and possibly some goals to fulfill in order to progress. When a dungeon is current content, you'd expect to spend maybe 30 minutes on it.

A "raid", on the other hand, is a far larger undertaking. You need a group of 10-25 players, who should ideally make sure to fill more specific niches than "tank", "healer", and "damage-dealer" (e.g. "This boss uses a Curse-type debuff, so you need one or two players with the ability to remove those curses"). The trash is harder. You have more bosses, often 10-15, and they are much harder, and often require a lot of coordination in order to survive specific abilities. A raid is something you do over the course of a few evenings.
 

Mercurius

Legend
I fully understand that many would like to see more setting material. Fair enough. I don't share the desire, but I can recognize the need. That said, I don't quite understand the other often-stated complaint about Wizard's present focus on Adventure Paths. Many say that they would like shorter dungeons and modules that they could incorporate into an ongoing campaign. Isn't that what they are in essence providing? When I read the Tyranny of Dragons AP, I viewed each chapter as a potential adventure that I could co-opt. While many of the chapters aren't really appropriate for my present campaign, three or four would work quite well with a little bit of work. Yes, it would take some work; but that would also be true for any smaller stand-alone adventure that would be published.

Yeah, I hear that. Understand that I always use my own homebrew campaign, so I'm not just talking about my own needs - but what I think would serve to bring 5E more fully to life. I think one of the reasons for Pathfinder's success is Paizo's diligent faithfulness to the Golarion setting, even if every single product is probably not a huge profit earner.

As far as your suggestion, a couple things come to mind. One is that all of specific AP is thematically related and thus hav a similar "vibe." Also, stand-alones can be picked and chosen and more easily customized. At the least I'd like to see WotC have a section in each story arc that offers guidelines for how to use the chapters as stand-alone adventures. The side excursions in Elemental Evil was a nice addition.

Of course all of this would somewhat be a moot point if WotC would only open up a gaming license. 5E needs something like Dungeon Crawl Classics.

Maybe surveys showed that their entire customer base, with only a few outliers, were on one side or another? If only a small fraction of consumers want that middle ground, with everyone else falling into DIY or AP camps, this is the smart move.

The thing is, the middle ground can serve both extremes - at least stand-alone modules.
 

My theory is that we're not the primary audience for the APs, and therefore complaints about APs not being what the player base wants are completely missing the point.

Mearls has stated in multiple places that D&D's biggest obstacle is modern instant-gratification culture. Lengthy character creation as a requirement to play effectively, copious DM prep-work, rules bogging down the game in actual play... any game that produces on the above is ultimately going to go the way of the dodo in a world full of video games, MMOs and (shudder) Candy Crush. And it's not just attrition from existing players who fall away from the game, it threatens to cut off newcomers to the game as well - all of that is a significant barrier to entry for curious folks browsing their local book or games store who don't want to put up with all that hassle just to get into a new game.

They've countered that in 5E with a fast playing ruleset and a "rulings not rules" philosophy (don't waste time looking up corner cases, make a judgement call and keep play moving), but the biggest remaining obstacle is all the prep work it takes to create a campaign. Older DMs who are working full-time are of course familiar with what a problem that can be, but even if you're a younger, school-age DM with plenty of free-time to plan out a campaign, the fact remains that that can be hugely intimidating to someone who's just picked up their first set of core books. I think most everyone here knows how rewarding a well-crafted homebrew campaign can be, but for a newcomer? They've got to be thinking to themselves that just playing "Dragon Age" or "The Witcher" on Xbox is a lot less work.

So I think that's the primary audience for the APs - folks just getting into D&D, with maybe a secondary audience of older players who don't have time for homebrew and just want a canned campaign to run with.

Everyone else is expected to make do with just the core rules, and maybe materials from previous editions - because right now there ARE no experienced players of 5E who haven't played previous editions, the game is simply too new. New material will be keep being added to the game through the AP companions and Unearthed Arcana, but it seems like they're satisfied with that level of output for the hardcore audience.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
Maybe surveys showed that their entire customer base, with only a few outliers, were on one side or another? If only a small fraction of consumers want that middle ground, with everyone else falling into DIY or AP camps, this is the smart move.

Huh, I could have sworn there was a quote from Mike Mearls that amounted to there being a roughly even split between groups who homebrewed, groups who kit bashed modules, and groups who ran APs.

Dang, this is why I feel a page tracking "D&D Development and Design Notes/Quotes" would come in handy.

I searched for a bit but couldn't find it...probably on Twitter or some other social media I don't use...but here *is* a quote from 2014 that emphasizes they are indeed aware that focusing on just the extreme ends of group data disenfranchises more players than it seems at first glance.

Mike Mearls said:
The biggest lesson was to listen to the entirety of D&D players, not just one group. If you look at reviews for 4th edition, they tend to be either very positive or very negative. There’s not much of a middle ground. It did a very good job of bringing balance and depth to combat, and for many D&D players that was a very good thing.

However, the audience is much more diverse than that. We launched the open playtest not only to test the rules, but to get a sense of what people actually wanted out of D&D. We found that many people in the audience wanted a fast, flexible, and easy-to-play game. That feedback went against nearly 15 years of conventional wisdom in the D&D business. It also stretched across all editions. Even people who loved 4e’s depth were interested in seeing a fast, simple core that they could expand to include deep combat when they wanted it.
Source: http://suvudu.com/2014/07/interview...-5e-to-be-fast-flexible-and-easy-to-play.html
 

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