D&D 4E The Best Thing from 4E

What are your favorite 4E elements?


S'mon

Legend
What I do enjoy in sim (or sim-ish) systems is the depth of PC development. I've enjoyed this about Burning Wheel (it's reminiscent of Rolemaster), and while I like 4e's more broad-brush, four-colour style I have enjoyed going back to something more nuanced.

Getting off-topic, Pendragon (own it, not played or GM'd it) seems to be a sim system (BRP) drifted
over to dramatist play - or at least, it ought to work well that way? What do you reckon? This is a type of game I'd like to run fairly soon (thinking 'manor' type play, or 'Game of Thrones' at a lower level of
world-power) - a group of PCs with ties of blood & loyalty, central set location (Deadwood/Castle Stark sort of thing) and a focus on character. I've been struggling with what system to use - considered using 4e D&D and Fallcrest, considered the Song of Ice & Fire RPG, considered Dragon Warriors, considered BRP
(generic) or BRP-Pendragon.

I want it to be dramatist, not the method-actor-sim you described upthread in relation to playing the
Harn system, My gut feeling is that a BRP type system might be better than a more D&Dish one (4e or Dragon Warriors) but I'm a bit worried Pendragon might be too "world-sim Mort-d'Arthur". I own The Song of Ice & Fire RPG, the system has the issues of (a) I don't know the system (b) closely tied to specific
setting, a setting I don't know that well and don't particularly want to run as canon and (c) seems
very specifically designed so you get something resembling a GRR Martin story, whereas I'd want me and my players to determine the type of story in-play. My feeling is that BRP is less rigid, being uncommitted to any particular type of story (though obviously not a great fit for superheroic play).
 

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S'mon

Legend
EGG was not a good designer

As a games designer I'd say he was a true genius. A lot of what he did gets overlooked because he did it first (& sometimes because he was building on the innovations of Arneson, a more conventionally-brilliant sort of genius). Gygax's genius was in creating structures that made role-playing Gamist, and addictively
Gamist: exploring procedurally-generated "Dungeons" as default play; XP & Levels, XP-for-GP, encounter tables, magic items tables, etc etc. The entire computer games F-RPG & MMORPG industry is in his shadow, not just tabletop games. The decline of RPGs in the '90s was directly due to the progressive loss of the mechanical systems he had created, causing 'incomplete games systems' (per Justin Alexander) that lack default
goals and functioning default play structures, resulting in frequent linear-path illusionist or
railroad play, or in "what are we supposed to be doing?" apathy.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
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As a games designer I'd say he was a true genius. A lot of what he did gets overlooked because he did it first (& sometimes because he was building on the innovations of Arneson, a more conventionally-brilliant sort of genius).
Agreed.

"Competency creep"/"Skill accretion" leads many to undervalue the work done by pioneers in all kinds of fields. In music, the innovations of previous musicians often becomes the baseline for mere competence as the decades roll. I could go on and on about techniques guys like Jimi Hendrix, Eddie Van Halen, Bootsy Collins, Jaco Pastorius, etc. created that, if you can't do them at least as well if not better yourself, you're not considered good enough to call yourself a pro.

EGG's work may seem creaky in comparison to the creations of modern RPG designers, but the difference is, he and his contemporaries were blazing the trails that those that followed could use as guidance.
 
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pemerton

Legend
So the heart of D&D for you is that misleading paragraph at the start of Moldvay Basic, that became the (equally misleading) iconic cover painting for Mentzer Basic. Not the other 63 pages of rules & stats.
At least I didn't try to make a career out of it like 2nd ed AD&D did!

I sort-of muddled about, mixing short-ish dungeons (Moldvay's "The Haunted Keep" was my model) with attempts at dramatic motivation, with recurring villains, revenge etc. OA was a breakthrough, and then I moved to Rolemaster, but run in the same sort of spirit.

I guess I think of it more 'Warlock of Firetop Mountain' and 'Forest of Doom' - essentially picaresque, lots of random PC death in an uncaring and brutal universe - completely un-Tolkien but a lot like
'The Dying Earth'.
I enjoyed the FF books, and still have a dozen or two of them on my shelf as well as a folder with all my old maps. A year or two ago I even got out Shamutanti Hills and City of Traps and spent an afternoon playing through them.

But my D&D was never that close to these. I think I always aspired to a bit more sustained narrative depth, even if I didn't always achieve it.

the Lordless Lands LL campaign I played in (GM'd by a librarian to the House of Lords) worked so well - it had an incredibly English sense of dark humour in the Fighting Fantasy/White Dwarf/TSR-UK style.
That map looks like it could be straight from FF!

Getting off-topic, Pendragon (own it, not played or GM'd it) seems to be a sim system (BRP) drifted over to dramatist play - or at least, it ought to work well that way? What do you reckon? This is a type of game I'd like to run fairly soon (thinking 'manor' type play, or 'Game of Thrones' at a lower level of
world-power) - a group of PCs with ties of blood & loyalty, central set location (Deadwood/Castle Stark sort of thing) and a focus on character. I've been struggling with what system to use - considered using 4e D&D and Fallcrest, considered the Song of Ice & Fire RPG, considered Dragon Warriors, considered BRP
(generic) or BRP-Pendragon.
I've played only a little bit of Pendragon. [MENTION=49017]Bluenose[/MENTION] on these boards knows it well, I think, and might be able to give advice on its detachability from strict world/genre sim.

I don't know SoIF, hence can't comment on it, but I can see why you're looking at RQ/BRP.

For the game you are describing, I would absolutely recommend Burning Wheel - good for low power, does character focus and ties of blood and loyalty very well - but you may not want to have to pick up a new system. At a superficial glance it has quite a bit in common with RQ (detailed skill list, advancement by doing, gritty combat, good support for non-combat as well as combat) but in the details of play it is very different (players are expected to metagame advancement, to play their characters hard in pursuit of troubles and goals to earn the fate points that make sustained mechanical success more than remotely feasible).

BW is far, far grittier than 4e - my running of Maiden Voyage ended up with the crew mostly dead, the ship sunk and the PCs adrift in the Wooly Bay clinging to wreckage - but it doesn't have PC mortality as a consequence of failure in the fiction (those PCs are laden with fate points to help them survive the next scenario, in the Bright Desert).

I think contemporary Mongoose RQ is less instantly fatal than classic RQ. And any form of RQ will be mechanically less intricate than BW. But won't have the same mechanics for bringing blood and loyalty to the fore.
 

Well, it ate my reply to you, and I'm not going to write it all up again. The main points:

(1) I like details, and it doesn't have to be mundane exploration tracking. One of the PCs in my long-running 3.X game lost both his eyes, and if he hadn't been blinded in our fourth session, things would have been massively different. So that's why I like details like that.
See, I wouldn't call THAT a 'detail'. Its not something that 4e provided for out of the box, but there are rules for BEING blind. Obviously the narrative implications are beyond pretty much any general RPG rules, though I could imagine something very specific (IE a class modeling a cult of blind oracles or something like that, pretty specific but not too far-fetched). Anyway, its not really a detail. Personally, using 4e or its ilk, I would see this kind of thing as a collaboration between the DM and the player, not something imposed by pure chance, though it could start out with a chance circumstance.
(2) Empowering players comes in when you take power away from the GM and give it to the players. In my system, the players have the capability to determine the DC of a check, and find ways to hit that DC, forcing events to happen. So they can determine that someone is very hard to convince, find out why, and find ways around it. This is all mechanically. And that takes power from the GM and gives it to the players, which is what I would describe as player empowerment.
I just cannot comment on your system, its unknown to me. Classic skill systems don't work that way. Some games have fairly extensive lists of skills and circumstances, usually within areas thematically linked to the setting or game system/genre. Most provide a smattering of 'DCs' for the most commonly encountered situations and that's it. However, 4e in particular provides a pretty firm foundation for setting other DCs. Its quite possible to play 4e 'by the book' (especially the RC) and have practically every DC come down to a known number with a variance basically between moderate and hard being the uncertainty factor (not small, but manageable). MOST DCs will be known pretty much exactly.

Right. And the more defined you get, the more empowered your players are. I don't feel like the things I've described in 4e (skills, skill challenges, subjective DCs, and stunts) are very defined at all. They're all filtered through the GM. And while you say you think everything is, you also point out that powers are "VERY nailed down." And the closer you get to that side of the park, the more power the players possess. I find skills, skill challenges, subjective DCs, and stunts on the other side of the park.
I look at it this way:

4e Skills: See above, they're as nailed down as most anything gets in RPGs IME. The fact that 4e usually has clearly ONE specific skill with fairly well-documented effects for any given check situation makes it more deterministic than many systems. It is definitely more so than 3e in any of its standard forms where just deciding which skill applies is a highly doubtful operation in many cases.

Skill Challenges: Two things. First no other D&D-like system has them at all (well, SWSE if you count that, no doubt someone will point out another) but the point is SCs should be compared with what? Entropy! They're INFINITY% more empowering because the alternative is random die rolls until the DM feels happy declaring success or failure. As others have pointed out, at least they provide a defined endpoint at which the DM has to get off the pot and declare something has happened.

'Subjective' DCs: Again, nobody has a DC for everything, and 4e's DCs are no more or less subjective than those of any other system. They should be relatively consistent as well, though that isn't really assured.

Stunts: Again, 4e's alternative here is entropy! 3e, 2e, 1e, every other flavor of D&D of which I'm familiar has NOTHING beyond possibly a suggestion that the DM use skills and make up some DCs and usually some of the example DCs for the skill system will be something you eyeball (Acrobatics for example in 3e lists some DCs that you'd probably base off of). 4e at least says "here's what the DCs should be for something you think is challenging to a level X PC, and here's how much damage should result when its an attack". Again, this is so many light years beyond most any other RPG that it HAS to be pretty empowering by comparison.

I dunno. I feel pretty happy with my stuff. And it has rules for a lot of things D&D doesn't try (outside of skill challenges for some of these): navigation and long term travel, running nations (with things like economy, loyalty, population density, land benefits, materials to be produced, etc.), running organizations, running businesses, running cities, random events for nations/cities/organizations and their mechanical effects (d100), changing weather, two levels of mass combat rules, sieges, how far you can throw things, feats of strength, effects of alcohol, effects of drugs, gambling, torture, magical land, character personality traits, assessing DCs, predicting actions, a life course, background charts, mechanical effects for all objects, the economy and pricing, an in-depth crafting system, inventions, new magical effects (like imbuing magic into land or things like protection on objects instead of people), tiring yourself to get a bonus on a Strength check, fame, calling in favors, titles, reputations, respect from the people, respect from organizations, rank in the military, rank as a noble or as a member of royalty, relationships with NPCs, societal status, national traits, societal traits, regional traits, stunts, training, earning experience in a time skip, working, solving riddles or puzzles, advanced mathematics, controlling emotions, feigning death, making jury-rigged objects, mimicking sound, ingratiating yourself to someone over substantial time, interpreting, setting moods, forging objects, breeding animals, base animal temperaments and how to change them, training animals to gain experience, autopsies, identify details from a wound, reduce or negate penalties through the mundane Heal skill on a broad level, resuscitating dead creatures, attracting attention, beating others while avoiding marks, bullying someone over time, research, commanding armies, inspiring troops on a broad level, spreading rumors, making a deal with someone, mundanely fascinating a crowd with a performance, uplifting the spirits of traveling companions over long distances, professions that cover broad areas (such as just the Blacksmith or Ranger skill), cold reading, counseling, figuring out what someone values, rules on gathering food in various terrains/seasons/temperatures, forming shield walls, and probably more.

And then there's the combat stuff I added: appendage loss, bleeding, other maimings (eye, nose, ears, etc.), called shots, combat styles, maneuvers, technique points, defense bonus to AC, various combat maneuvers (like repositioning people), taking people hostage, holding back damage, extra damage for beating a DC, hitting people that attack you, grappling maneuvers, riding maneuvers, knocking people unconscious on surprise, pressure point attacks, combat stunts, changing your damage type, gaining combat feats you can swap out quickly, mundanely reducing penalties to attacks, hitting someone quietly, mortally wounding enemies, skull fractures, broken bones, etc.

All told, my book weighs in at about 320 pages. And that includes rules for all the standard stuff (making magic items, making monsters, etc.). So, is it possible? Well, to my satisfaction, yes.
Yeah, obviously I just cannot possibly comment on this except to say that it would certainly be IMHO unworkable for a commercial game. Such a massive compendium of material has, in my mind, two effects. First it crushes the GM creatively in a vice of pre-imagined ways of doing things. This is immaterial of course for you because these are YOUR ways that work in your campaign to achieve your goals. I wouldn't find such a work useful simply because I don't want to have you telling me how the economics of a kingdom run, and I might well not want to do it in whatever way you have detailed. Secondly how do you even find something in that mass? I wouldn't use it just from sheer awkwardness of trying to sort through and decide what section of that list a given situation in the game was applicable to and just FIND the rules. Yes, you can index and cross-index, and etc, but how do I even know what terminology you used for something? In a fairly small work of this sort, like the 3e skill list for example its not TOO hard to do that, but I doubt anyone but you could ever make it workable. It would certainly require a very large investment of hours of reading and many years of play to become facile with such a system.

SO, in terms of a discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of RPGs that are likely to be encountered out there in the world I don't think the 'massive list of everything possible' really has a lot of weight.

Honestly, I THINK I would find it as disempowering as it was empowering in the sense that if everything I can ever think of to do is already spelled out in there, with the implication that all the associated agenda and setting assumptions and etc is attached then I'm going to feel like I only have this one recipe to do the thing I want. Its exactly what people complained about with 4e powers, that having this hard fast list of powers that was what you could do made the game too rigid. The saving grace of 4e, what made it all work, was the high quality of support for going outside those bounds, and the narrowness of the arena in which powers applied (combat pretty much).

Why would things not be laid back at my table? Out of the players that I run my RPG for, I've known them for 13 years, 15 years, 15 years, and 29 years (and I'm 29!). We're all very close friends, and very relaxed.
Well, I didn't mean to imply anything about anyone's group. I only mentioned mine because it reflects on my experience as a GM. That is to say I have very collaborative and experienced players that I am close with and thus we can pretty much do anything with our game. I could unleash an unstoppable disaster in my campaign that wiped out all the PCs and the whole world without even a hope of averting it, tell them to roll up new characters, and they'd just be like "Oh, that's interesting, OK, where are you going with this!?" Yours may well be the same, it is often so with such groups.

I just like to give them the power and options. It's more transparent and player-empowering for them, and less work for me. Win-win, as far as my playstyle preference is concerned :)

Yeah, I just don't have a problem with the level of clarity that 4e has. We all know how each other think. They can pretty much set their own DCs.
 

S'mon

Legend
I think contemporary Mongoose RQ is less instantly fatal than classic RQ. And any form of RQ will be mechanically less intricate than BW. But won't have the same mechanics for bringing blood and loyalty to the fore.

Yeah, I (currently) don't think I want a Narrativist game like BW, something fairly traditional with few if any player-side metagame mechanics. I think I want something where the focus is more on character development (lateral) rather than progression (vertical), which argues against any class/level system - my 22nd level 4e campaign is already technically a 'manor' game since the PCs rule a small domain, but the disjunct between the Epic Tier PCs and the Heroic Tier dominion (& husband, girlfriends, family etc) means it plays more superhero style, like Clark Kent at the Daily Planet - I'm looking for something where the PCs are more equivalent to & part of the setting in power level.
Maybe base off Pendragon but with a grimmer setting more like Winterfell or the Dragon Warriors setting, in the north of Britain (Cumbria?) on the far edge of Arthur's Kingdom rather than at Salisbury & Camelot, not much Arthurian canon and a lot of freedom of action. Build a mini sandbox around a small castle... Just mulling. :)
 

I don't think Rule 0 per se encourages Illusionism. I think GM advice "fudge to ensure desired outcome" encourages Illusionism. I can & do use Rule 0 - I houserule - without Illusionism.

I would say that it more enables rather than encourages. However, that being said, I've often found that, in AD&D and WW especially(and in other parts of life), enabling (that sort of latitude) is not too terribly far from tacit encouragement.

I feel you, no worries I love you

Uh huh :p

Hmm... thoughts on 1 in regards to 4e. I feel like skill uses ("can I do this?"), stunts ("can I do this?"), skill challenges ("can I do this?"), and subjective skill DCs (possible inconsistency, definitely open-ended) all suffer from your 1. I feel this very strongly after running that 4e game.

So maybe you can show me you don't think that's the case (if you do in fact believe that)? Pointing towards addressing that would be very illuminating. You know, it'd clear things up, make them more transparent.

Right quick. I haven't had much time to involve myself here and I've skimmed tons of posts. This is the best thread we've had on here in some time. Saelorn, pemerton, Tony Vargas, Aenghus, AbdulAlhazred and several more have done a great job of breaking down illusionism so I hope that is satisfactory. I'll try to illuminate the various techniques of GMing in the follow-up post that I'm going to do breaking down a conflict I GMed on here (examples linked to in my above post).

However, I want to address JC's post right quick in a very broad, system-sense before I move on (and I don't have time to do anymore right now!).




TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +9, Endurance +9, Heal +11, History +10, Nature +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Arcana +7, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +8, Insight +8, Intimidate +5, Perception +14, Religion +7, Stealth +11, Streetwise +5, Thievery +9

ENCOUNTER POWERS
Athletics Utility 6: Mighty Sprint
Ghost of the Past Utility: Guidance of the Past
Ghost of the Past History Reroll

RITUAL BOOK
Bloom
Earthen Ramparts
Pass Without Trace
Traveler's Camouflage

Alright, so let us take a look at all the component parts here. I ran a solo game for my S.O. where she basically played an elven female version of a non-diplomancing Aragorn...with a bear companion who is haunted by the memories of her former lives where she failed at this specific mission repeatedly. Fighter (Slayer) with bow and two-handed swordplay + nature rituals + Iron Resurgence to rouse the spirits of her companions (and herself) jack of all trades and all kinds of skill bonuses everywhere. Further, as you can see, she is especially proficient in all of the physical rangery stuff (Athletics, Endurance, Heal, Nature, Perception, Stealth) and History.




Now let us take a look at the DCs of her level and the standard skill challenge mechanics (which I use overtly and rarely, if ever, make any changes...and if I do I'm up front about it).

DCs 11 16 23

The overwhelming majority of DCs in the game will be medium. The % medium for SC Complexity below:

Complexity 1 = 100 %
Complexity 2 = 83.33 %
Complexity 3 = 75 % but with 2 Advantages that can make it 100 %
Complexity 4 = 70 % but with 4 Advantages etc etc
Complexity 5 = 67 % but with 6 advantages etc etc

And of course, you get 1 Secondary Skill for a + 2 buff (typically) per level of complexity (eg 3 for complexity 3).

A brief look at Terrain Powers and the Stunting advice bulwarks this theme. The vast majority of DCs in the game will/should be of the Medium DC. Secondary Skills will be Easy, a stray few Primary Skills will be Hard, and a very few stray Stunts will be Easy or Hard. But the overwhelming majority of Stunts and Primary Skills will be Medium.

This transparency alone makes character building to archetype (and thus manifesting in play) a cinch and engenders the protagonising of the PC. If you look at Saerie above, she is automatically (or near it) passing the Easy DC with a vast array of her skills. On her archetype skills, she is right up against auto-passing (and 75 ish + % success) with them (even before + 2 from SS buffs). On the very few Hard DCs (which an SS is typically reserved for augmenting), with Athletics/(with + 5 1/enc)/History (Reroll 1/enc)/Nature/Perception, she is passing ~ 60 %ish. Several others she isn't too far off (and would be right there with SS skill buff).

Now clearly the Cha portion of the social skills she will struggle with (but she is still hitting the medium DC, unaugmented, 45 % of the time). But again, the transparency helps her build to that and understand the implication on the fiction. Further, it helps me as a GM when I want to put her in a spot (challenge her socially) and we can see what interesting things comes out of it.




Alright, on to play procedures in noncombat resolution.

In a 4e Skill challenge, the GM's job is to:

A) Through conversation with the players, make clear the stakes and goal of the coming confilc and prospective fallout (based on the evolution of the fiction and the stakes)

B) Frame the PCs directly into the conflict in a way that allows them the opportunity to express their PC's protaganism rather than a way that subordinates it. And this should follow directly from the prior fiction.

C) Make sure the player intent in each action declaration is clearly understood such that the fiction can evolve from the abstraction of intent + implication on stakes rather than process.

D) Using the techniques of (1) success with interesting complications (when the PCs succeed on a Primary Skill) and (2) fail forward with setbacks/cost (when the PCs fail on a Primary Skill), the GM moves the fiction forward in a dramatic arc, evolving the fiction coherently, until it snowballs into...

E) ...the cementing/locking-in of the outcome of the conflict (success/failure in the overall skill challenge) based on the stakes/goals established in A above.

F) Frame follow-on conflict based on what just happened (or transition and ask the player's questions about intent/plans and then frame).

E) The GM will be using the very few Hard DCs (if there are any) in a way that typically stokes the dramatic embers (and/or seems sensible). This is certainly negotiable with the players. The players will then leverage their resources (Secondary Skills, Advantages, Enounter Power buffs/rerolls, etc) to overcome and rise to the occasion.




Stunting is again very transparent and very simple (thus not really accessible to illusionism). Its almost universally:

If non-attack then...

1) Skill at Medium DC

if attack then follow up with...

1) Constult damage expressions and negotiate effect with players from that budget (will be tier-centric) and possible fallout on failure (typically CA UEoYNT).

2) Skill at Medium DC (very, very rarely will it be High or Low)

3) Level + 3 vs NAD or Level + 5 vs AC




All of that is quite transparent, protagonising such that players can reliably build PCs to archetype, make action declarations where the % chance of success is easily discernible, and the effect/fallout/implications on the fiction is clear beforehand. Couple that with 4e's array of author/director stance resources that players have at their disposal and there really isn't much, if any, vulnerablility to illusionism.

I'll run through that play example next chance I get (hopefully way, way late tonight...time is jamming me up right now). Hopefully that is coherent and engages the conversation well enough. Sorry if it is a bunch of wandering crap. Doing this as quickly as I'm able right now.
 

To me that is still metagame - for instance, why is it a human cleric of Pelor rather than a dwarven assassin who is in the right place at the right time? Not because of any working out of internal world-logic, but because a player wanted to play one sort of character rather than another!

More generally, I don't really feel the aesthetic force of quarantining this sort of framing to setting up the game. If it's OK to have a dramatic thing happen to these people here and now because that's the premise of the game, I don't see why it's not OK for another dramatic thing to happen to them down the track.

It's not as if the causal forces in the world, as modelled through the dice and other mechanical systems, make it impossible that subsequent dramatic things should occur to them!

In my experience, it is very hard to make much headway in 2nd ed AD&D without the GM having an overwhelming influence on the shape of events.

For instance, will or won't the PCs bump into any given NPC? There is no device for the players to instigate such an encounter. The random encounter tables to which the GM has access tend to indicate only hostile or potentially hostile NPCs (eg they tend not to include labourers, peddlers, admirers, etc, and all the other ordinary or not potentially hostile people the PCs might meet). And even if the GM confines him-/herself to these tables, and uses random reaction rolls, these don't dictate where NPCs come from, why they might be friendly to or hostile to the PCs, etc.

But if a PC is in prison, whether or not any given NPC comes to visit him/her, or tries to free him/her, or tries to sneak in to assassinate him/her, is all pretty crucial stuff (I've just been re-reading REH's "The Scarlet Citadel" and "The Hour of the Dragon", in which visits by NPCs, freeing by NPCs, and attempts to assassinate a prisoner by an NPC, all factor into Conan's ability to escape from prison). So the GM's decisions about this, whether made up out of whole cloth or constructed out of the random tables, will have a huge influence on the shape of the events.

Other examples could easily be given.

To my mind, this isn't particularly about the GM being neutral. Neutrality doesn't come into it, really - is it more neutral to not send an NPC to try and rescue the PC? Or less neutral? - nearly everyone has friends and admirers, after all!

It's about a lack of tools and techniques to avoid the GM having to do this heavy lifting. Classic D&D didn't have them because it wasn't really designed with those sorts of scenarios in mind, and 2nd ed AD&D didn't really add any significant new tools or techniques to the classic chassis that it inherited.

I can easily imagine this. Think about whether or not your PC has socks, or a handkerchief, or a lock of hair from his/her childhood sweetheart. I think in most games I've played PC equipment lists have not been specified to such a level of detail. Now all you have to do is generalise that to other cases - like the PC has "Adventuring gear" lists on his/her sheet, but we don't know whether or not it has rope in it. (Because the player didn't write it down, or because no one can remember whether or not all the rope got used up in an adventure we played a year ago, or . . .)

In my current campaign, I'm sure at least one PC sheet is in exactly this state.

But in any event, ignorance about roped-ness wasn't what I had in mind. Suppose we know the PC doesn't have rope. So the player declares an alternative way around the obstacle (say, an attempt to simply climb the wall Conan-style). If the GM then says no, or the player rolls a check and the GM declares it a failure, should the player keep trying to think of solutions (eg pull out the potion of levitation that was being saved for a rainy day)? Or should the player conclude that the GM is blocking any and all attempts to circumvent the obstacle, and the player is simply going to have to choose some other path for his/her PC?

In an illusionist game, including one in which the GM is sometimes blocking and sometimes not, the player can't tell. The GM could reveal, but then (i) we're out of illusionism into something else (participationism, or perhaps a trainwreck if the players arc up at the revelation), and (ii) for many players, immersion would be spoiled because the metagame has suddenly been made overt.

4e bites the bullet on (ii), by making the metagame overt: the player has to negotiate with the GM for the feasibility of what is being attempted before any check can be declared or resolved. But it thereby avoids the covert blocking issue: once a check is declared, there is a structure to establish DCs, to determine how close the situation comes to resolution (N successes before 3 failures), etc.

This is set out in the skill challenge rules that I quoted upthread: the GM first works with the player to frame the desired check within the fiction (operating under the guiding principle of "say yes as much as possible"); then the check is declared, made and resolved, with the GM narrating the consequences that flow from the framing.

If the issue is one of word-meaning, it's no skin of my nose how you want to use the word "power" or the phrase "player empowerment".

I think that, in comparison to the way that "trad" framing and skill resolution works, the players have more power because (i) there is an overt, unconcealed negotiation phase where they are entitled to make a pitch for what is feasible in the fiction, and (ii) the GM is under instructions to say yes when possible rather than block, and (iii) there are mechanical systems that tell both players and GM what to do if the GM says yes (eg no "insta-win" buttons, but instead a system of accumulating failures and successes determined within a framework of "subjective" DCs that are at least notionally designed with the maths of PC build in mind).

I think the way that (i) and (ii) confer power on the players is fairly self-evident once stated. (If you don't think someone being entitled to negotiate with someone else who is under instructions to say yes when possible empowers the first person, OK, but then I think the issue is one about word use or about the deep metaphysics of social interactions, and not about game design.)

The way that (iii) confers power on the players is, in my view, two-fold. First, it prevents GM blocking, calling for endless re-tries, etc. All the stuff that @Aenghus and I have talked about, which for me is part and parcel of 2nd ed-style D&D.

Second, and a bit more indirectly, it supports the GM in saying yes because it ensure that saying yes has predictable, workable consequences rather than leading to game-breaking outcomes. It might seem paradoxical that the removal of insta-win buttons empowers rather than disempowers the players, but I think that it does. Insta-win buttons create the illusion of power, because of their nature within the fiction, but the fiction is not self-executing - the need to mediate insta-win buttons via GM adjudication means that, at least in my experience, they are not a source of player power but rather a cause of illusionist or adversarial GMing (with the traditional treatment of the Wish spell being just one obvious paradigm).

When you write the book, this goes in ;)
 

I stopped playing D&D in that sort of style in the mid-80s (with my purchase and then GMing of Oriental Adventures).

So I may not have noticed the contrast so markedly.

I think I made ONE mega-dungeon, in about 1976 using the geomorphs that came in my Holme's Basic set. I don't think we really ever explored much beyond level 4. Even then we just didn't get too much into that sort of play. I did later create the rough outline of a whole lost dwarven city, but only one level and a few other specific areas were ever detailed. THAT actually worked quite well in my 4e campaign, though it was originally written up for a 2e game in the 90's. I wouldn't say dungeons in the classic OD&D 'random maze of death' style would work well at all in 4e, but fairly plot-focused dungeon environments are fine, as long as you avoid the 'rooms full of monsters' approach.

In fact, thinking about it more, I've had quite a few underground locations in 4e games. They tend to work perfectly well, and some were at least loosely pretty dungeon-esque. The passageways through the rock under a sky castle was a good one. The party had to enter from the bottom after flying in on some hippogryphs they managed to beg from an elf town that owed them a favor. That was almost pretty trad, but again tightly themed, definitely nothing like mazes of monster-filled randomness.
 

The 'Lordless Lands' hardcore Labyrinth Lord game I worked in (edit: meant 'played in' - Freudian slip!) seemed to be like that - there were tons of missions/areas that were above our level. But the GM made the threat level clear, and sometimes NPCs would refuse to hire us for missions because we weren't powerful enough. It was up to us to locate doable
stuff.

So a guy might stagger in with a map to the Doom Dungeon of the Deadly Hydras, but our PCs knew
or could easily establish that we should not go there if we wanted to stay alive.

The game had a deliberate feeling of bathos - if the GM had been trying to make us feel like cinematic
protagonists it would have been a terrible setup. Instead it had a darkly humorous tone that was
great fun.

Interesting, I always like preconception-shattering settings, they can be pretty fun. Of course I wouldn't exactly say I think it disproves my thesis. Clearly by being an alternative to the standard fare it pretty much shows that everyone at some level knows that most settings/campaigns are set-pieces.

The fact that the bathos, and relative danger levels of each area, had to be telegraphed to the players being a nod to the merciless tyranny of the practical over the fanciful. It would be aesthetically most pleasing for the designer of said campaign to make the bathos explicit by letting PCs simply guess which places to avoid (and the consequent carnage attendant to that), yet he felt an overriding need to give them a chance to survive. Every DM feels this kind of pressure, most simply bow to the inevitable.
 

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