Latest D&D Survey Says "More Feats, Please!"; Plus New Survey About DMs Guild, Monster Hunter, Inqui

I'm A Banana · May 4, 2016

Tony Vargas said:
Even with a 24, that afore-mentioned Red Dragon is hitting you on a 7, while early in your career, monsters probably needed an 11 or so. There probably should have been a way of working proficiency into AC, at least for certain classes - those 'best at fighting,' for instance.

It's not a problem for a red dragon to hit you, just like it's not a problem to fail a saving throw.

In fact, high defenses are dull in a gameplay and narrative sense. "The dragon misses you" is much less interesting than "the dragon hits you." Even a character who is The Best At Fighting should be hit fairly often by The Hardest Monster In The Game - otherwise, the rising tension and interesting decision-making in an encounter kind of goes out the window. Better to be hit on a 7 + and be able to take 65% more damage than to be hit only on a 13 + and to be able take 35% damage!

But ultimately, my takeaway is the same - getting hit and failing saves are an expected part of gameplay, and you're not "behind the curve" if you have a low AC or lousy saves ("I pumped Intelligence and Charisma!"). You're just playing the game in a different way (my gnome wild mage with an AC 14 is playing the "avoid getting targeted" game, myself!)

RotGrub · May 4, 2016

ChrisCarlson said:
Thanks for clarifying. I just wasn't sure if maybe using the term differently than I'm accustomed. All good. And, yeah, I totally get how 4e is right up your alley. It scratches that same itch when I play it.

I'm a huge proponent that people should play whatever system/edition works best for their proclivities.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

To my surprise I recently discovered that Rotgrubs are considered unfair by some purists. Of course, I'm perfectly happy role playing a miniature giant space hamster while my fighter is waiting for a res...

RotGrub · May 4, 2016

Magil said:
I disagree. You could give the fighter a spell list, call them maneuvers/"blade magic", sell it as "optional", and there. The structure is already there within the system.

What about all those slides, pushes, pulls, and various micro action types like reactions and interrupts? I'm not convinced that giving the fighter a bunch of powers would go far enough. The combat mechanics of the system would limit this approach.

Maybe you need an optional rules module coupled with a few supporting classes, something like a miniatures handbook. Still, it really needs to remain optional so that it doesn't conflict with TotM game play

Tony Vargas · May 4, 2016

RotGrub said:
What about all those slides, pushes, pulls, and various micro action types like reactions and interrupts?

They're just handled by more specific rules/rulings. Thunderwave, for instance, still pushes, in spite of there being no formal 'push' jargon or involuntary movement mechanics in 5e. Reactions already exist 'interrupts' are just a special case-by-case exception to the usual use of your reaction, and bonus actions have been added, as well.

Still, it really needs to remain optional so that it doesn't conflict with TotM game play

Anything and everything added to the game after the PH is necessarily optional, so that's a non-issue. And every to-the-foot range/move, encounter with more than one enemy, detailed battlefield, and geometric AE conflicts with TotM, anyway, so a non-issue with a non-issue.

I'm A Banana said:
It's not a problem for a red dragon to hit you

Didn't say it was. But you are getting hit more often, not less. That's not exactly advancement (at least, not for you). Sense of advancement with accuracy bounded, of course, comes more from hps/damage.

just like it's not a problem to fail a saving throw.

Oh, that can be an issue. When hp scaling comes into it (save:1/2, for instance), it's fine, humiliating to be getting steadily worse, but at least you're also getting steadily tougher. When the save is binary and doesn't involve hp scaling, it's a lot less fine.

and you're not "behind the curve" if you have a low AC or lousy saves. You're just playing the game in a different way.

Well, you are playing the game a different way, a way that includes being behind the curve - perhaps even reveling in it.

nswanson27 · May 4, 2016

I'm A Banana said:
It's not a problem for a red dragon to hit you, just like it's not a problem to fail a saving throw.

In fact, high defenses are dull in a gameplay and narrative sense. "The dragon misses you" is much less interesting than "the dragon hits you."

I have to disagree. I always find myself cheering on the ubertank when he/she gets missed again and again, knowing how much that is helping out the party. Furthermore, epic bad guy usually knows that they should be hitting often. When they don't, either the DM roleplays the frustration out, or the DM unintentionally lets out their own slip out at the table. Either way - highly entertaining and fun.

I'm A Banana · May 4, 2016

Tony Vargas said:
Didn't say it was. But you are getting hit more often, not less. That's not exactly advancement (at least, not for you). Sense of advancement with accuracy bounded, of course, comes more from hps/damage.

My point was only that adding +1 to AC or attacks or save DC's or whatever isn't necessary to keep pace with the monsters, so it is not necessarily the "automatic" choice (and that characters who DON'T choose to do those things aren't being handicapped).

Tony Vargas said:
Oh, that can be an issue. When hp scaling comes into it (save:1/2, for instance), it's fine, humiliating to be getting steadily worse, but at least you're also getting steadily tougher. When the save is binary and doesn't involve hp scaling, it's a lot less fine.

Saving throw effects are rarely binary in their consequences. If you fail a saving throw, you're not typically sitting there doing nothing - there is usually something you can do still, and there's always interesting decisions to be made about how to remove or reduce the effect. Failing a saving throw isn't the end of the line.

Well, you are playing the game a different way, a way that includes being behind the curve - perhaps even reveling in it.

The curve is a lie.

If you can revel in being an entirely functional and competent character "behind the curve," then what is even the purpose and meaning of any curve to begin with? What does it measure? What changes when you're behind it or when you're ahead of it?

Because my AC 14 wild mage is having similar results to our AC 24 paladin and our AC 23 duelist, all without me devoting really any resources to moving up that curve.

ChrisCarlson · May 4, 2016

nswanson27 said:
I have to disagree. I always find myself cheering on the ubertank when he/she gets missed again and again, knowing how much that is helping out the party.

All 5e has done is move x to the other side of the equal sign.

RotGrub · May 4, 2016

nswanson27 said:
I have to disagree. I always find myself cheering on the ubertank when he/she gets missed again and again, knowing how much that is helping out the party. Furthermore, epic bad guy usually knows that they should be hitting often. When they don't, either the DM roleplays the frustration out, or the DM unintentionally lets out their own slip out at the table. Either way - highly entertaining and fun.

I also disagree, a Balor's vorpal sword doesn't just "miss" without tears of joy.

I'm A Banana · May 4, 2016

nswanson27 said:
I have to disagree. I always find myself cheering on the ubertank when he/she gets missed again and again, knowing how much that is helping out the party. Furthermore, epic bad guy usually knows that they should be hitting often. When they don't, either the DM roleplays the frustration out, or the DM unintentionally lets out their own slip out at the table. Either way - highly entertaining and fun.

Flip it - what do you feel like when you miss all the time?

Not that schadenfreude isn't fun, just that emotional design matters, and it'd probably be better of everyone was having fun. A high AC is like discard in Hearthstone (or counterspell decks in M:tG): only fun when you're the one benefiting, and annoying for everyone else.

nswanson27 · May 4, 2016

I'm A Banana said:
Flip it - what do you feel like when you miss all the time?

Not that schadenfreude isn't fun, just that emotional design matters, and it'd probably be better of everyone was having fun. A high AC is like discard in Hearthstone (or counterspell decks in M:tG): only fun when you're the one benefiting, and annoying for everyone else.

Nah, I'll keep the coin heads up and maintain my air of superiority over the NPC

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Latest D&D Survey Says "More Feats, Please!"; Plus New Survey About DMs Guild, Monster Hunter, Inqui

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