D&D 5E How viable is 5E to play at high levels?

Mike "Sly Flourish" Shea had this advice for running tiers for 4e:
Be kind to them at Heroic
Be even-handed at Paragon
Be a bastard at Epic

That's true in 5e as well. When the PCs hit the teens in level, you need to stop being fair and start being a dick. Make actively unfair encounters. Give the monsters an advantage. Because the PCs/ players will find a way to even the fight.
 

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It can be done but what is your current play style?

1) 6-8 encounters per day?
2) Large party, I have given a bit of what I am doing earlier. Check it out.
3) Is resting easy? Especialy long rest. The easier it is to rest, the harder it will be for you to challenge them. In addition, easy rest makes up for a nova style campaign that can be even harder to challenge.
Easy short rest can be a problem too as you have half of the party that recharge powers on short rest.
Standard rest rule, gritty realism or heroic?
4) 2 unearthed arcana style character. That is play test material it can lead to some difficulties. I don't use these but they should be managable.
5) Static world or active world. Do monsters wait in their room for the PC to come in or once discovered they will hunt down the players? That can make a whole lot of difference.
6) Random encounters or not?
7) (and the most important) Single enemy type? Or multiple enemy types? Different types of enemies in an encounter can lead to much more challenging encounters. 8 giants are dangerous. 5 giants with 4 clerics and 2 mages are much more scarier and a lot more versatile against the players. A Single bless and a haste spell or two can wreak havoc on players' usual tactics.
8) How many and what type of magic items are in the group? A frostbrand would pretty much downgrade the danger of having fire giants as main enemies.
9) Optional rules that are used. Positioning? Hero points? Inspiration?

All these are important things to know to create challenging encounters.
I await further information.
 

Honestly, I think the rules as written can work fine. Things get strained if rests are too easy, and if magic items are handed out too freely, but even then a clever DM can make things very challenging. The problem is most DMs don't play monsters in an intelligent way, even the ones that should be intelligent.

Though as a fun exercise, I'm going to make a sample adventuring day for a group of four level 15 characters, assuming vanilla rules. Seven fights, one hard and six medium, two short rests. Note that this is just for fun, and the fights probably won't make sense, but I think in about ten minutes I can scrounge up a challenging day for a group. Obviously for a dungeon more work would need to be put into making the encounters more rational given the environment.

Encounter 1: Twenty-five giant poisonous snakes, six giant octopi, and an otyugh. The snakes slither up through holes in the ground.
Encounter 2: Four ghouls, a giant ape, and a mind flayer.

Short rest

Encounter 3: Two hobgoblin devastators in the back, two quicklings, and six ogres as a front line blocking the way.
Encounter 4: Two earth elementals, two fire elementals.

Short rest

Encounter 5: Four flameskulls and six firesnakes, the flameskulls open with readied fireballs when the PCs walk in. Flameskulls are always ready!
Encounter 6: Eight winter wolves.
Encounter 7 (Hard): Three ogres, three hobgoblin devastators, and a tyrannosaurus.

Long rest

The above was picked partially at random, and partially from my favorite things from the Monster Manual. I think those encounters could very easily challenge a group of level 15s.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I have a hard time challenging them without bringing down the what seems like endless enemies to try and challenge with attrition.
That's how it's supposed to work, yes. You can have the occassional 5MWD challenge - and the occassional 12+ slog - and highlight the PCs that nova the brightest or hold on the longest, but most of the time, you need just the right balance of chalkenge, attrition, gotchyas, and 'DM force' ...
 

Thakazum

Explorer
It can be done but what is your current play style?

1) 6-8 encounters per day?

Six.

2) Large party, I have given a bit of what I am doing earlier. Check it out.
3) Is resting easy? Especialy long rest. The easier it is to rest, the harder it will be for you to challenge them. In addition, easy rest makes up for a nova style campaign that can be even harder to challenge.
Easy short rest can be a problem too as you have half of the party that recharge powers on short rest.
Standard rest rule, gritty realism or heroic?

Standard

4) 2 unearthed arcana style character. That is play test material it can lead to some difficulties. I don't use these but they should be managable.

I would not be allowing these in the future. As a whole they don't seem broken but there are one or two things in each class that can negate quite a bit.

5) Static world or active world. Do monsters wait in their room for the PC to come in or once discovered they will hunt down the players? That can make a whole lot of difference.

The latest "encounter" involved them causing a scene in the lower level of the Hill Giant stronghold from Yawning Portal. This ended up causing the entire dungeon (under control of the giants) being alerted and moving in to attack. They had a brief moment (no rests taken) where they freed the orc slaves and rebels, causing a large obstacle on the field of play when the upper floor came down to see what was going on/take care of the problem. I was unrelenting in not giving them a moment to take a rest. This would have been much more than 8 encounters total, although a lot of them would be super easy by design.

6) Random encounters or not?

I used to use these but stopped when it was justification for taking a rest sooner.

7) (and the most important) Single enemy type? Or multiple enemy types? Different types of enemies in an encounter can lead to much more challenging encounters. 8 giants are dangerous. 5 giants with 4 clerics and 2 mages are much more scarier and a lot more versatile against the players. A Single bless and a haste spell or two can wreak havoc on players' usual tactics.

It depends. In the above example there were gnolls (including "elites"), ogres, hill giants, stone giants, and fire giants. The stone and fire giants were able to avoid some of the common tactics the party uses due to sheer amount of bonuses to saves and hit points.

8) How many and what type of magic items are in the group? A frostbrand would pretty much downgrade the danger of having fire giants as main enemies.

This is actually the most broken part of the campaign, however, they forget to use most of their items. The party had previously run through a converted Temple of Elemental Evil but I [mistakenly] didn't cut back on the amount of magic items enough.

9) Optional rules that are used. Positioning? Hero points? Inspiration?

Just feats (which seem to really turn the balance). Inspiration is standard and rarely used.
 
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Standard rule for rest. Ok.


I would not be allowing these in the future. As a whole they don't seem broken but there are one or two things in each class that can negate quite a bit.

Yeah, most of these need a bit more work to be balanced ok.


The latest "encounter" involved them causing a scene in the lower level of the Hill Giant stronghold from Yawning Portal. This ended up causing the entire dungeon (under control of the giants) being alerted and moving in to attack. They had a brief moment (no rests taken) where they freed the orc slaves and rebels, causing a large obstacle on the field of play when the upper floor came down to see what was going on/take care of the problem. I was unrelenting in not giving them a moment to take a rest. This would have been much more than 8 encounters total, although a lot of them would be super easy by design.

This is the whole point of the dungeon. Not sounding the general Alarm.

I used to use these but stopped when it was justification for taking a rest sooner.

You should not. In my campaigns, players are warned about the 6-8 encounter per day. They do not know the exact amount of encounters but they know that too soon a rest will incur a "random" encounter. The first one is usualy easy and the second is harder and so is the third... up to deadly. Some people will flame me here for doing that but it worked. Now players are trying to manage their resources a lot more and I don't have to rely on Deadly encounters all the time in my adventure design to challenge them.

It depends. In the above example there were gnolls (including "elites"), ogres, hill giants, stone giants, and fire giants. The stone and fire giants were able to avoid some of the common tactics the party uses due to sheer amount of bonuses to saves and hit points.

More or less the same type of monsters. No casters, no roguish type. But that is to be expected in this module. The Fire Giant part is way better. Add in a cleric or two to dispel party's buff and you might get surprised. My players are litteraly terrified of enemy spell casters. Counter spell and dispel magic are quite dangerous.

This is actually the most broken part of the campaign, however, they forget to use most of their items. The party had previously run through a converted Temple of Elemental Evil but I [mistakenly] didn't cut back on the amount of magic items enough.

Ouch... At least they will be limited to 3

Just feats (which seem to really turn the balance). Inspiration is standard and rarely used.

Ok with that. I personally use hero points, flanking and almost all of what is in the DMG.

I'm currently working night shift, I'll try to bring something up front in the next few days as I do not have the time to search through my papers for some time.
 

Thakazum

Explorer
This is the whole point of the dungeon. Not sounding the general Alarm.

Oh yes! It actually made for an interesting mega-encounter. They did have a few iffy moments of players going down and if the onslaught continued much longer, they would've been toast.


You should not. In my campaigns, players are warned about the 6-8 encounter per day. They do not know the exact amount of encounters but they know that too soon a rest will incur a "random" encounter. The first one is usualy easy and the second is harder and so is the third... up to deadly. Some people will flame me here for doing that but it worked. Now players are trying to manage their resources a lot more and I don't have to rely on Deadly encounters all the time in my adventure design to challenge them.

As someone who plays a lot of old-school games, this really appeals to me. I think I'll try it.

More or less the same type of monsters. No casters, no roguish type. But that is to be expected in this module. The Fire Giant part is way better. Add in a cleric or two to dispel party's buff and you might get surprised. My players are litteraly terrified of enemy spell casters. Counter spell and dispel magic are quite dangerous.

Thanks. I think I need to not be lazy and devote some time to modifying encounters a little more.


Ouch... At least they will be limited to 3

This has really helped. While I personally don't like Attunement from a flavor standpoint, I appreciate what it does.
 

Stalker0

Legend
There's no point building a "damage sponge", ie a tank, if the monster can one-shot you, despite you being optimized to soak attacks.

So far I have not found that to be a problem. High level tanks can take the pain even from the CR + 5 monsters I've thrown at them at times. This is of course assuming access to healing. If your party doesn't have that then its a different story.
 

cooperjer

Explorer
Can someone who is obviously a greater DM than I give me an example encounter that works? Say I have a party of 6 ranging from (four 11's, one 13 and one 14). Feats have been allowed (multiclassing is but no one used it). I have a hard time challenging them without bringing down the what seems like endless enemies to try and challenge with attrition. I feel like they are near-invincible and just cut through monsters like butter.

I would love an example.

More specific example of party makeup:
11 - Hill Dwarf Open Hand Monk
11 - High Elf Lore Wizard
11 - Half Orc Battlemaster Fighter
11 - Mountain Dwarf Scout Fighter
14 - Human Rogue Swashbuckler
13 - Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric

My current approach is to use a percent of the daily XP per the DMG. In your case the total daily XP for that party is 70500. The easiest encounter would have a total XP of 10% or 7050 XP. The hardest I would recommend is a 45% encounter at 31725 XP. These XP values do not use the multiple enemies modifiers for encounter building. I also want to keep things interesting and moving quickly by ensuring I have the right number of NPCs. The number of NPCs in the encounter should not be less than 4 and probably not more than 8 in your case (i.e. group number +/- 2). Finally, as others have said, ensure that the environment is a significant factor in the encounter.

As an example of environmental factors the Princes of the Apocalypse has falling rocks for 6d6 damage, sanity checks as an aboloth tries to enter your mind, water that you could drown in, etc.

With respect to the magic items I like to add special features that make each one unique. Some of these features are detrimental. A fishing Rod of Protection demands that its wielder go fishing to catch the "big one" unless the wielder can make the Wisdom save. A Manta Ray Cloak was made from the flesh of an aboloth. It can drive it's user insane if the user doesn't keep the aboloth out of its head. A +2 sword that was constructed by water elementals, is driving the wielder to destroy all evil water elemental creatures and those allied with them. No save allowed on this last one. Either the sword is satisfied or it no longer grants its benefits.
 

[MENTION=6862150]cooperjer[/MENTION]
I really like the last paragraph.
As for the experience per day...
I now use the Unearthed Arcana way of calculating challenge. I find it a bit easier. But for a party of 6, I would not go for less than party -1 for the number of creatures and I would not restrain my self to party +2.
 

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