D&D 5E TftYP - Running Sunless Citadel

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
There's nothing necessarily wrong with this, of course, but damn is it boring when there's no dramatic conflict (i.e. in a dungeon-crawl). It also eats up a ton of time, if not whole sessions.

I'm not sure what to do about this, but in the future, I'll probably frame town visits in the past tense. "The party spent a few days recuperating in town. What did you do during that time?"

Agreed. In my current campaign, I've implemented something of a "town stuff" mini-game that I think is working pretty well so far. We basically boiled down the general tasks you can do in town for a given day (or part of a day) to just a few - Carouse, Get Services (includes Recruit), Supply, Gather Information. Players choose which task their characters undertake individually and where to undertake it. (Sometimes they'll team up if they want to Help.) The locations offer trade-offs and usually have a cost, but you get a tangible benefit for your trouble if you succeed in your effort. It keeps things tight and we establish a few details here and there that add up into a fleshed out town pretty quickly. ( [MENTION=6801219]Lanliss[/MENTION] has already seen some of that for his character based on his choices. He's got a bad relationship with the owner of the livery and the local thieves' guild.)
 

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Lanliss

Explorer
Agreed. In my current campaign, I've implemented something of a "town stuff" mini-game that I think is working pretty well so far. We basically boiled down the general tasks you can do in town for a given day (or part of a day) to just a few - Carouse, Get Services (includes Recruit), Supply, Gather Information. Players choose which task their characters undertake individually and where to undertake it. (Sometimes they'll team up if they want to Help.) The locations offer trade-offs and usually have a cost, but you get a tangible benefit for your trouble if you succeed in your effort. It keeps things tight and we establish a few details here and there that add up into a fleshed out town pretty quickly. ( [MENTION=6801219]Lanliss[/MENTION] has already seen some of that for his character based on his choices. He's got a bad relationship with the owner of the livery and the local thieves' guild.)

And the town in general for swinging around my "Bad Reputation" Pirate feature to avoid paying for stuff. The thieves guild only dislikes me for telling them to not rob my friends. Good stuff, altogether.
 

Prakriti

Hi, I'm a Mindflayer, but don't let that worry you
Agreed. In my current campaign, I've implemented something of a "town stuff" mini-game that I think is working pretty well so far. We basically boiled down the general tasks you can do in town for a given day (or part of a day) to just a few - Carouse, Get Services (includes Recruit), Supply, Gather Information. Players choose which task their characters undertake individually and where to undertake it.
Funny. That's very similar to something I was considering telling my own players. Most of them had never run a proper dungeon-crawl before, so in trying to prepare them for the experience, I was going to introduce Oakhurst by saying, "Imagine a menu pops up and the only options are SHOP and SLEEP."

But I was afraid they might take it too literally and fail to investigate the Citadel's history. If I had thought of "GATHER INFORMATION," I would have been a lot more comfortable with the idea. But at the time, I was thinking of old computer games and the like, whose menu options were usually limited to 5-6 characters.
 

Onslaught

Explorer
So... one thing I'm curious about Sunless Cidadel in 5e is how deathly are the dungeon's major combats? At which level did the PC's faced those challanges?

* Calcryx the White Wyrmling

* The Quasit

* Gultash the Bloated One

* The Hobgoblin boss in the first level

* The End fight

I'm afraid the dungeon might play like dungeon vietnam, but I'm not found of that way.
 

Prakriti

Hi, I'm a Mindflayer, but don't let that worry you
So... one thing I'm curious about Sunless Cidadel in 5e is how deathly are the dungeon's major combats? At which level did the PC's faced those challanges?
For the most part, none of the encounters are any harder than Klarg in Lost Mine of Phandelver. The most difficult fight is Durnn and the hobgoblins. If the party is heading in that direction at level 1, then drop a few clues that they might not be ready for it yet. The second most difficult fight is Calcryx, because her breath weapon can instantly kill a level 1 character from massive damage. If the party has Meepo with them, then Calcryx should be a much easier fight.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
So we had our first session with this yesterday. We went five and a half hours and finished after the Hobgoblin boss in the first level. Was a great first session, everyone loved the dungeon and the party had a healthy level of respect for the challenge level. A few thoughts. Note that we ran exclusively in theatre of the mind.

* Started them at the edge of ravine and fed them the info from Oakhurst. Surprised them, but I think ended up saving at least an hour of play time and ultimately allowed us to get to the end of level 1.
* Gave them a 3 day time limit. Backstory is that they all either owe a favor or are looking for a favor from the Zhentarim, and were sent to Oakhurst from Neverwinter to acquire the golden apple by any means necessary. If they do not return with it in a week, they will be considered to have run out on the Zhentarim. In practical terms, this means that they will not be able to use the same characters from this module in future TftYP modules.
* Used the dynamic DC variant for Passive Checks (-9 from the DC and roll 20) and it worked great.
* Party befriend Meepo and the Kobolds, promised to bring Calcryx back, but did not take Meepo with them into Goblin territory.
* Party never followed the southernmost dead end track of the dungeon and decided against going into the rebuke the dead room.
* Caltrop hall fight was the highlight of the session. I had one of the two goblins go and get the other 3 from the archery room next door to reinforce. Party gained enough xp to get to level 2 as a result of that fight. As a DM, I learned a thing or two about cover and the power of dynamic terrain to make a combat more interesting.
* Triggered both dragon fountains, even though they were positive the second was a trap.
* Had no problem with the bloated one
* My genius party had no thief and no one with lock picks, so they were unable to get into Calcryx's room, but had a great conversation with her from the hallway. Calcryx kept baiting them to come in as she could smell the treasure on them. In the end they decided against breaking the door down and fighting her.
* Fight against Durnn the Hobgoblin started off very good for the party and then had a very dramatic turn. First I crit against the Barbarian (who had decided not to rage) and came within 2 HP of killing him outright (thanks to the Martial advantage feature). That was immediately followed up with the goblin criting on the Paladin with Inflict Wounds, killing him outright and leaving only the bard and the warlock. It looked like a potential TPK until the next turn the bard popped off a perfect thunder wave and took out the remaining 4 enemies.
* We finished with the party in the tower near the hole down to the grove level. They are still at 2nd level, and deciding whether to go back for Calcryx now that they have a key. Player who lost the Paladin introduced his back-up, a halfling thief who has been following the party and was also sent by the Zhentarim.

I think the party is going to need a long rest before they push on and I'm thinking that if they leave the Citadel that when they come back the Kobolds will have taken over the top level but Calcryx will have escaped them again and will have gone down to the Grove with her treasure. May have some additional undead roaming the first level as well.

Thanks to everyone who gave their thoughts and advice!
 
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Lidgar

Gongfarmer
Great recap OB1! Many fond memories of this adventure.

Just on the topic of healing/rests, there are two additional variants you can consider if you really want to ramp up difficulty:

1. Healing: Healer's Kit Dependency (DMG p266)
2. Rest Variant: Gritty Realism (DMG p267)

Personally I am not a fan of the first, but the second is closer to 1e/2e. Note the second variant will especially impact Warlocks.
 
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OB1

Jedi Master
[MENTION=28334]Lidgar[/MENTION] - Decided against using the rest variant for a couple of reasons. One is that I felt like the Sunless Citadel was going to be difficult enough without it, and I preffered to have a ticking clock prevent them from simply long resting after every encounter. I think with the variant rule it would actually encourage that even more. Secondly, my group has just gotten used to the idea as player HP being a measure of stamina in combat, and that 0 HP means that you have let down your guard and are now vulnerable to a killing blow. So in that sense the 5e rules make a lot of sense.

Finally, the dungeon turned out to be plenty challenging without using the variant, and my first rule of home brewing is to not alter the rules unless absolutely necessary.

I touched on it before, but enemies using cover consistently really changed the difficulty level of some of the encounters. The bloated one was a super easy fight for the players, as the rats didn't use cover. Compare that to the fight with the 3 goblin bandits at the top of the map, where tipping over a table to protect themselves from the warlock's eldritch blast and bards hand crossbow meant the paladin and barbarian having to take a couple of hits before victory. Also, the crit that the goblin got with inflict wounds only happened because she ran behind the throne after casting bane in the first round, allowing her to pop out and strike the paladin in the next round. Had she stayed in plain sight, the warlock or bard would have likely taken her out before she had the chance to get the crit.

I'm sure this is not a surprise to many on these boards, but it's been an awakening for me. I think one of the reasons I didn't use much cover before was that we always played on a grid, and didn't have a lot of props to show exactly where cover was, so we just ignored it and most fights ended up being white room slug fests. With TOM, suddenly everyone is trying new things and combat is becoming MORE tactical. The thunder wave the bard got off at the end, for example, came from her using her feline agility combined with her climb speed to go along the tower wall and get in perfect position to nail the four enemies. I'm not sure she would have ever tried that on a grid.
 

Balfore

Explorer
So, what about doing away with Passive Perception all together, and just have them roll for each room...which is what they will do anyways?
Or, as they open the door, they give you 2 rolls for perception (they all will try anyway) and you use the first roll for traps (but don't tell them), the second roll for secret doors?

What's the reason for the randomness of the fluctuating DC? Just to keep it random?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 

thethain

First Post
This will probably only work once and the pcs will get wary of it, in the goblin room past the caltrops, have the goblins only fire once, then retreat to the next room, because they can hide as a bonus action (and talk as a free one) they can have the entire next room hide then ready attacks for whoever comes around the corner. That will almost certainly guarantee a player unconscious/dead as he takes 3-5 shots as they round the corner (most with advantage). Also don't forget a 2 foot wall is either 1/2 or 3/4 cover for the goblins, depending on how devious you feel.

The fight with the goblin chief should involve someone being shoved into the pit (they get a save). And the shaman has inflict wounds, which can easily one shot level 1s.

The troll fight can also throw someone in the pit (Grapple, then just walk to the pit) It might be less damage than an attack, but it also removes that player from combat a bit.

The laboratory has a vial of toxin next to the experiment, particularly cruel DM might have a goblin try to force it down a players mouth. (something like a grapple attempt)

Similarly, you can have the players know of the rumors of the healing power of the fruit of the gulthias tree. But they came in winter, they can find the white apple on a goblin along the way. Of course if they take a bite of the white apple its 75 necrotic damage rather than healing... Maybe an OK history check reveals the fruit, but an exceptional one reveals about the white fruit.

You could also adjust the way the patrols work, basically even if they miss being attacked by a patrol during a rest, a patrol is still added to represent scouting parties returning and getting ready to return. (Just put the patrol in a logical place to restock if you don't roll enough to affect the players).

Have several of the twig blights in the last area where the players would be encountering the final encounter, rather than animating and attacking immediately, they first attack when players leave their reach with an opportunity attack (with advantage for being hidden).

Absurdly devious: If the players help the Kobolds, have the leader request them attend an elaborate ceremony granting the title of Dragonguard for the characters, all the characters are told to wear the robes and staves of the Dragonguard for the ceremony. All the kobolds in the lair attend and cheer during the ceremony, at the end they attack to attempt to subdue the characters(who are now wearing cloth armor and only have a quarterstaff as a weapon) to feed them to the dragon.
 

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