Underpowered Group Found BBEG

Stalker0 · Nov 26, 2018

Mort said:
One problem with just about every iteration of D&D is that running away is ridiculously difficult and often not the option it should be.

Man don't I know it; it is so difficult for my poor monsters to get away from those blood thirsty PCs!!!

Quickleaf · Nov 26, 2018

Retreater said:
Not really. They didn't actually do any exploring into the lairs and never got to the point of having to make Stealth checks against creatures. They didn't get close enough to actually know there were creatures in the other passages. It was basically "this way looks right" and they went that way. Then when they got to the door that needed a special key to unlock (which would have been found in the secondary areas), they just muscled their way past it.

[We're playing "Forge of Fury" from "Tales from the Yawning Portal" btw]

Wait, they made it through the Mountain Door, the Glitterhame, the Sinkhole, and the Foundry without earning XP? Wow.

Even looking at just the Foundry, and the most direct route...

Area 35 (Chamber of Statues) involves a trap which is probably worth a few hundred XP. Area 36 (The Great Hall) has a tense negotiation with duergar which could go badly and involve an invisible ambush if not handled well, so probably worth XP. Area 37 (Bladeworks) could be bypassed by gaining a duergar guide in the last area, but without a guide would involve a group Stealth check to bypass, or else it would be a fight. Area 38 (The Chasm) doesn't have any "encounters" per so, but that climb is very dangerous for a low-level party...DC 15 Athletics checks, more than one being required, and 12d6 fall damage? That's definitely a significant hazard. If the party expend resources to overcome it, could be worth XP.

Mort · Nov 26, 2018

ExploderWizard said:
I would like to address the the concept of poor design for a moment. Too often poor design is thrown out as a catch-all excuse whenever an "un-winnable" combat scenario is a distinct possibility within the context of the adventure. I don't expect to be able to chop through any and all situations with brute force in a role playing game. There are choices that can be made that don't involve hitting something with a sword or fleeing for your life. Some situations might require parley and negotiation to resolve. It becomes difficult to resolve such encounters when the players always almost without exception, start fighting first.

The problem with many published adventures is that parlay and negotiation have little to no chance of working. All too often players learn not to bother.

ExploderWizard said:
One issue that contributes to the problem of every obstacle looking like a nail is that all PC classes in the last few editions of D&D have been forged into hammers. When every member of the party is more or less a top tier fighter in their own right, it naturally follows that hitting things first becomes the go to mode of operation, the logic being that they wouldn't have all those combat abilities if they were not supposed to use them allthetime.

I can certainly see that, though, at least in 5e, having a "face" focused character is very doable, even easy.

ExploderWizard said:
Once the mentality of being a berserk murderhobo in any conflict and the experience of this actually working take hold it is difficult to expect sane, rational, or prudent behavior from players.

It's up to the DM to show that alternative options work. Unfortunately, it's also very easy for the DM to lapse into only combat works mode.

Retreater · Nov 26, 2018

Quickleaf said:
Wait, they made it through the Mountain Door, the Glitterhame, the Sinkhole, and the Foundry without earning XP? Wow.

Even looking at just the Foundry, and the most direct route...

Area 35 (Chamber of Statues) involves a trap which is probably worth a few hundred XP. Area 36 (The Great Hall) has a tense negotiation with duergar which could go badly and involve an invisible ambush if not handled well, so probably worth XP. Area 37 (Bladeworks) could be bypassed by gaining a duergar guide in the last area, but without a guide would involve a group Stealth check to bypass, or else it would be a fight. Area 38 (The Chasm) doesn't have any "encounters" per so, but that climb is very dangerous for a low-level party...DC 15 Athletics checks, more than one being required, and 12d6 fall damage? That's definitely a significant hazard. If the party expend resources to overcome it, could be worth XP.

I'm not saying they got NO experience. Just not enough. The mountain door went basically as expected, and they faced every challenge within, fighting the monsters, bypassing traps, etc.

They bypassed almost all of the Glitterhame, making a bee-line to the door of Durgeddin (?). They knocked it down and that lead straight to the Foundry level - bypassing the Sinkhole level completely.

They easily got past area 35 with a perception roll and some deduction (which i will award them XP for). They then put up a magic rapier +1 and made good checks in the Great Hall to get a duergar guide to parley with the leader. I haven't yet awarded XP for "defeating" the duergar, because it's unclear if the party has actually won them over yet. (Since they need to defeat the dragon to fulfill their bargain with the duergar.)

They aren't actually in the dragon's lair yet. They are still negotiating with the duergar. But it's unlikely they can get enough XP (or treasure) to deal with the dragon at this stage.

I guess I'm worried because I was a player in this encounter when it was released for 3.0, and that dragon is deadly, even for a party of experienced players with characters twice the recommended level.

CydKnight · Nov 26, 2018

Mort said:
Sure, but it's unsatisfying when a TPK is the direct result of the parties "good" choices!

Do you really want to reinforce the idea (remember, new players) that the best or even only way is to methodically plod through the entire dungeon and constantly throw yourself into danger, even if a better route clearly exists?

This isn't the result of hints, or lack of hints. It's apparently the result of a flaw in the adventure, where the PCs can bypass most of the dungeon and get to the BBEG early.

I think people who are saying "They must face the dragon as is, and let the dice fall where they may!" are missing the point here. The adventure isn't supposed to run this way - either the designers or the DM goofed and this fact needs to be recognized!

Solutions:

1) recognize that the players DID essentially beat the dungeon and milestone XP them up to the correct spot where they would be accordingly. This rewards them because they can face the Dragon fresh AND it seems fair to reward rather than penalize them for playing well.

2) Really drive it home that they are NOT ready for the Dragon and let them escape without facing it, or (as suggested by a few posters) give them a direct mission to find something else in the dungeon so they can XP up. This will work, but frankly, I don't like it as much as option 1 because your essentially saying - sorry guys you didn't follow the railroad - try again.

3) Break immersion and tell the group "look guys, this won't work well unless you go the route intended by the module." In a published adventure that went off the rails, this is not unacceptable - it's certainly more acceptable that throwing the group into a likely TPK because there was a mistake made by the module! Again though, why not just reward them for good (or lucky) play instead and give them the XP they would have otherwise gotten but for the mistake in the module (or the DM in letting them past a door they should not have been able to open).

Meh, I like the way you pick and choose items out of context and assume what I am saying is strictly an either/or situation and/or simply argue the opposite of what I was apparently attempting poorly to say.

Nowhere was I am implying the party should be penalized for "good choices". My statement was more in line with if all else fails.

I also am no advocate of facing a dragon as is, and letting the dice fall as they may, as you put it. My post assumed the DM had done all possible to the best of his/her ability and the party still insisted on taking a more direct route to the BBEG. Since I wasn't sure, I led my opening sentence with the word "Sometimes".

If it was a design flaw in the adventure, and the DM recognized it ahead of time during preparation, he/she should take steps to ensure that it runs smoothly. Your "Solutions" are a great way to address this kind of flaw and again, I assumed similar steps like this would have been taken before allowing a party to essentially TPK itself.

Slit518 · Nov 26, 2018

Retreater said:
My group has bypassed much of the dungeon. By sending out their scout, they found the most direct route to the villain but have avoided exploring much of the dungeon. As a result, they didn't encounter most of the side encounters (and thus did not have the opportunity to deal with them at all - whether by stealth, roleplay, combat, or other means). They have missed out on vital XP and magic items, and now are about two levels too low to deal with the dragon and poorly equipped.

Do you send them back up to "clear out" the dungeon and farm for XP and loot? Let them face the dragon underpowered (and possible TPK)? Handwave the XP and treasure to make them appropriately leveled to fight the dragon? Or something else?

I would normally handwave the XP, but in this case I'm running for a group of newer players, and I think they need to earn the XP (not just mechanically, but they need to learn their characters and how to deal with certain challenges).

What do you think?

Let their actions decide. If they find out it is a dragon and decide to stay and fight, let it happen.

In the words if Ivan Dragon, if they die, they die.

jasper · Nov 26, 2018

lunch, lunch, lunch. TPK! TPK! TPK!
Dragon cheerleader. "what do you want?"
Dragons," Lunch, lunch, lunch!".

This is how a dragon horde grows!

Quickleaf · Nov 27, 2018

Retreater said:
I'm not saying they got NO experience. Just not enough. The mountain door went basically as expected, and they faced every challenge within, fighting the monsters, bypassing traps, etc.

They bypassed almost all of the Glitterhame, making a bee-line to the door of Durgeddin (?). They knocked it down and that lead straight to the Foundry level - bypassing the Sinkhole level completely.

They easily got past area 35 with a perception roll and some deduction (which i will award them XP for). They then put up a magic rapier +1 and made good checks in the Great Hall to get a duergar guide to parley with the leader. I haven't yet awarded XP for "defeating" the duergar, because it's unclear if the party has actually won them over yet. (Since they need to defeat the dragon to fulfill their bargain with the duergar.)

They aren't actually in the dragon's lair yet. They are still negotiating with the duergar. But it's unlikely they can get enough XP (or treasure) to deal with the dragon at this stage.

I guess I'm worried because I was a player in this encounter when it was released for 3.0, and that dragon is deadly, even for a party of experienced players with characters twice the recommended level.

I see, so they skipped a lot of Glitterhame. Well, on the plus side they won't be as worn down & will be fresher for the dragon fight. And you have the option of adding a duergar NPC to the party for the fight if their negotiation goes particularly well.

Because the black dragon uses breath-submerge-recharge-breath-submerge...(and so on) tactics, the main thing to look at is its average breath weapon damage. Is 49 hit points more than the maximum hit points of the party's frontline fighters? If yes, that means the dragon could conceivably take out the entire party with a breath weapon. That's my "bar" for when determining if a dragon fight is likely to be so hard that it could be un-fun. One quick fix is to give the party some increased hit points in the form of scrolls of false life, a potion of heroism, and/or a duergar NPC casting aid.

Retreater · Nov 27, 2018

Quickleaf said:
I see, so they skipped a lot of Glitterhame. Well, on the plus side they won't be as worn down & will be fresher for the dragon fight. And you have the option of adding a duergar NPC to the party for the fight if their negotiation goes particularly well.

Because the black dragon uses breath-submerge-recharge-breath-submerge...(and so on) tactics, the main thing to look at is its average breath weapon damage. Is 49 hit points more than the maximum hit points of the party's frontline fighters? If yes, that means the dragon could conceivably take out the entire party with a breath weapon. That's my "bar" for when determining if a dragon fight is likely to be so hard that it could be un-fun. One quick fix is to give the party some increased hit points in the form of scrolls of false life, a potion of heroism, and/or a duergar NPC casting aid.

The Frontline fighter might be ok against the breath weapon, but likely the rest of the party (wizard, monk, and ranger - no cleric) wouldn't be.
I could tone down the dragon, play him suboptimally, or run it more as a role-playing encounter. Or conversely maybe he's not in the lair, they get to pillage him, and he comes back for revenge later when they are leveled.

Lidgar · Nov 27, 2018

Doesn't that dragon have a pretty sizable horde on one of the islands, including magic weapons and maybe potions?

You could emphasize these items to get at least one of the characters to make a beeline for it. Have the dragon snoozing and waking up just as the character(s) reach it's horde. Throw in a couple of potions of superior healing and maybe even a potion of acid resistance. Should make for a climatic battle with PC's splitting time between attacking the dragon and pulling helpful treasure out of the pile...