Two Weapon Fighting (yeah, I know...)

doctorbadwolf · Dec 7, 2018

Charlaquin said:
I agree that it is the simplest solution, but I’m of the opinion that the simplest solution is only the best solution if it isn’t worse than more complex solutions. Allowing dual-wielding with only one light weapon and one non-versatile weapon opens up the possibility of rapier and dagger, yes, but it equally opens up rapier and shortsword, which is strictly better than either rapier and dagger or dual shortsword. Heck, it’s strictly better than greatsword until you get extra attack. Adding the ability to be dual-wielded with a non-light weapon to the dagger is a better solution, but it also makes the dagger the objective best simple weapon, even more so than it already is. That may or may not be an acceptable consequence to you, YMMV. Personally, I would rather attach the ability to the rapier or make up a new weapon to attach it to.

In other words, Occam’s razor tells us that, all other things being equal, the simplest solution is the preferable solution. All other things are not equal in this case.

Easy concerns to address without adding weapon properties. The rules for TWF should be contained in the combat section, and in the abilities that center on fighting with two weapons, not in the descriptions of special weapon traits. Referencing light weapons or versatiles weapons or two handed weapons is one thing, because you don't need to read the trait description, you just need to look at the chart, and see if the weapon has that trait.

I'm sure we could word the rule to allow daggers without adding noticeable complication or breaking simple weapons.

Honestly, TWF needs a boost, so allowing any light weapon in the offhand, regardless of main hand, or just specifying in the rule that rapiers are the exception, rather than daggers, is fine, but the game won't break if it also gives a +1 AC or Attack when your second attack is with a dagger. Shortsword is higher damage, dagger is either better defense or more accurate.

Laurefindel · Dec 7, 2018

Or what about this...

Two Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action on your turn and are holding a primary light melee weapon in one hand and a different, secondary light melee weapon in the other, the following rules apply:

- you can use your bonus action to make an attack with your secondary weapon.

- when you use a bonus action to make a melee attack with your primary weapon, you can make an additional attack with your secondary weapon.

- you do not add your ability modifier to your secondary weapon attacks.

- if either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon instead of making a melee attack with it.

Stalker0 · Dec 8, 2018

Laurefindel said:
Or what about this...

Two Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action on your turn and are holding a primary light melee weapon in one hand and a different, secondary light melee weapon in the other, the following rules apply:

- you can use your bonus action to make an attack with your secondary weapon.

- when you use a bonus action to make a melee attack with your primary weapon, you can make an additional attack with your secondary weapon.

- you do not add your ability modifier to your secondary weapon attacks.

- if either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon instead of making a melee attack with it.

Only issue with this....which for most characters rarely comes up....is you have a scenario where the player wants to use their main attack with their secondary hand (maybe its got a magical property that useful in this situation or something). In this language, you can't do that, its only usuable for the extra attack.

Laurefindel · Dec 8, 2018

Stalker0 said:
Only issue with this....which for most characters rarely comes up....is you have a scenario where the player wants to use their main attack with their secondary hand (maybe its got a magical property that useful in this situation or something). In this language, you can't do that, its only usuable for the extra attack.

Yeah, I wanted to avoid primary/secondary or mainhand/offhand, but that makes it much easier to explain thereafter.

That being said, nothing would prevent you from saying that, for this round, your left-hand weapon is your primary weapon, and reverting to your right-hand weapon as your primary weapon the following round.

Beowulf · Dec 8, 2018

How about we stop trying to come up with rationalizations that skirt around the issue and just go completely meta-game:

"You may wield two weapons that combined do 2-12 damage. When you make a successful attack roll with one, both hit, but you only add your ability modifier once."

Longsword & Dagger, two Short Swords, Club and Battleaxe, Hand-axe and Quarterstaff....whatever you want. Just as long as it doesn't go above 2-12.

TheCosmicKid · Dec 8, 2018

Beowülf said:
"You may wield two weapons that combined do 2-12 damage. When you make a successful attack roll with one, both hit, but you only add your ability modifier once."

Mearls has mentioned that TWF rules which don't involve making two attack rolls don't test very well. I guess it puts players at too much of a remove from the fantasy of, y'know, having two weapons.

TheCosmicKid · Dec 8, 2018

Just spitballing:

- When you make an attack while dual-wielding and miss, if you don't have advantage, you can make a second attack with your off-hand weapon as part of the same action.
- When you make an attack while dual-wielding, if you do have advantage, you can "split" the advantage, treating each of the two die rolls as a separate attack roll for one of your weapons.

This would give dual-wielding an identity as the "reliable/opportunistic" tactic, distinct from "defensive" sword-and-shield and "high-damage" two-handed weapons. You get quasi-advantage on your attacks whenever you want, and you are especially rewarded for generating advantage.

Beowulf · Dec 8, 2018

TheCosmicKid said:
Mearls has mentioned that TWF rules which don't involve making two attack rolls don't test very well. I guess it puts players at too much of a remove from the fantasy of, y'know, having two weapons.

Huh. I'm surprised people feel that way, given that you already have to make a choice between:
1) Believing that every six seconds you get exactly one sword swing, or
2) Taking the attack roll as an abstraction of lots of things that happen in those six seconds

Seems strange that having one roll apply to both weapons is the straw that breaks the imaginary camel's back.

FrogReaver · Dec 8, 2018

Beowülf said:
Huh. I'm surprised people feel that way, given that you already have to make a choice between:
1) Believing that every six seconds you get exactly one sword swing, or
2) Taking the attack roll as an abstraction of lots of things that happen in those six seconds

Seems strange that having one roll apply to both weapons is the straw that breaks the imaginary camel's back.

People are irrational...

Laurefindel · Dec 8, 2018

[MENTION=6978009]Beowülf[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6683613]TheCosmicKid[/MENTION], both suggestions are good but do not address the fact that I want to keep part of the competition of bonus actions, and keep the cost of opportunity of TWF.

What I want is for TWF to be pertinent even when the player gains an extra attack with a melee weapon as a bonus action.

Two Weapon Fighting (yeah, I know...)

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

Laurefindel

Legend

Stalker0

Legend

Laurefindel

Legend

Beowulf

First Post

TheCosmicKid

Hero

TheCosmicKid

Hero

Beowulf

First Post

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Laurefindel

Legend

Similar Threads