..snip.. The fighter is the pre-eminent nonmagical warrior. Knows weapons and armour The barbarian is fuelled by the rage mechanism. The rouge is defined by skills -- not by combat.
If I don't want to play a professional warrior, then rogue is my only option.
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- Presumably you pick Fighter rather than Rogue for the combat prowess of the base class, in the same way a strength-based rogue picked rogue due to the skill capabilities of the base rogue chassis.
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<in regards to fighters/barbarians over rogues>
They're much better in combat, being tougher, less restricted, and having greater capabilities.
But they're nowhere near as good when it comes to versatility out of combat and skill use. - I'm guessing it depends on what you mean by "better".
Because you want to play a tricky, skillful character who gets by in combat through dirty fighting rather than being an outright combat monster.
I think this is were it strikes me most.
To me, a Thug is more a professional fighter (aka warrior) than defined by skills. That said backstab is more of skilled assassin shot than a fighter. So I actually played a rogue archer as a sniper which is a skilled warrior and mechanically very much suites the rogue feature set. Fighters are less "skilled" doing less damage per hit but overwhelming with multiple attacks. Barbarians raging is also a path of over whelming an opponent with brute force. The grappler design, of this subclass seems like an overwhelming force which fits the fighter or barbarian better... In my opinion, based on the fighter being able to use shove on the first attack and then attack the knocked down opponent multiple times and Barbarian being able to do the same thing with advantage on the shove from rage and only one additional attack. However, I am not against the strength rogue. I just feel like the design went the wrong way by choosing to follow grapple because its a base mechanic which these other two already make good use off. It would even make more since to make a grappler monk as they are a hand to hand martial class.
I don't have a problem "Dirty work" by its self its a strong but not broken ability the with the melee weapons add to backstab. It just makes since for the design as does the medium armor proficiency.
I think the "Coercive Presence" fear ability is a step in the right direction, because it effects the group in a very gang mentality thuggish ability that plays to a skill and intimidation + expertise + reliable talent granting fear suites the rogue class features. The "This effect ends
if you take damage, if you become incapacitated, frightened, or restrained, or if you and the target are more than 30 feet apart" restraint means its not at all to powerful. Its a good way to coarse and be a thug before or out of combat in the vein of what both of you said was key to a rogue.
Manhandle and Cheap shot are where the class does too far to being a grappling fighter/barbarian and lose its attachment to rogue as skill based class or one hit assassin, instead leaning into skill less strength brutes. I would like the class to lean into other skill abilities if its going to be rogue. Like "Coercive Presence" fear, perhaps a skill based on deception "there is no where you can hide that I can't find you" or "I know your holding out on me, your shorting me and your going to regret it." When you really don't know. Its also good for dealing with guards, "What do you mean I'm steeling his money!?!? I gave him a loan I am just here to collect". You can do that with deception already. But my point is having intimidation (charisma) has already made it a good idea to pump strength and charisma so it let the strength be your combat stat, medium armor, encumbrance, and grapple which you can already pump with feats and expertise if you want to go that route. Then do another charisma skill bases ability and add a combat twist to it.
Example (it's going to be bad I am winging it, just for example)
Double agent, you gain advantage on deception (charisma) attempts to convince enemies your own their side of a conflict if they haven't previously meet you and your not standing with your party. Additionally, If you enter combat separate from your party, an enemy has to make an insight (wisdom) test versus your deception (charisma) to realize you are with your part of the group they are fighting. On failure, you are not considered hostile to them. When you attack a target to which you are considered hostile it is treated as surprised and you make the attack with advantage. Once, you have attacked an enemy or been seen attacking the ally of an enemy they become hostile and are immune to this effect.
Not a great example, but its kind of the "it wasn't me, I am not with them denial" so a stronger opponent as opposed to the Coercive Presence intimidation, which lets the same character adapt to different situations. I also feel like pretending your on the other side of a fight blackjacking the back of someones head who thinks your on their side is pretty thuggish.
