D&D 5E Xanathar hint from Crawford?

Jester David said:

But given only the ranger stood out to WotC as underpowered - and even then the majority of players and DMs thought it was fine -

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In a poll that predates errata that nerfed the dragon sorcerer and was made when the game had been out for barely a year...

If you think it needs a patch, then house rule it. Problem solved.

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Tell me exactly how can I houserule as a player? (When I DM everything is sunshine and puppies, but being a DM means you don't get to play and if you are a player you don't DM)

Coroc said:

Good to hear, first I did not recall wether I read that in UA or SCAG which I do not personally own.

Edit: I would houserule though, that the FS does not get arcane spells at all but only divine spells. Otherwise the class seems balanced in the revision.

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I'd suggest you'd try to come up with the most broken Favored Soul you can using both lists at different levels and then compare it with both a cleric and a Theurgist at the same levels before you make up your mind. Take into account clerics share a good deal of spells with sorcerers anyway, not in the cleric list itself, but in domains. Also that a 20th level sorcerer can't even afford to have two spells of every level and new favored soul doesn't change that -oh wait sorry they get 1 extra spell known: cure wounds-.

Coroc said:

Good to hear, first I did not recall wether I read that in UA or SCAG which I do not personally own.

Edit: I would houserule though, that the FS does not get arcane spells at all but only divine spells. Otherwise the class seems balanced in the revision.

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Its already balanced, removing Sorceror Spell list isn't needed.

Coroc said:

Still 8 3rd level spells at level 10 compared to the 3 a wizard gets makes a difference doesn't it?

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Can't a wizard also use their 4th and 5th level spell slots to cast 3rd level spells too? Would that not make the wizard's total 8 as well?

MoonSong said:

Tell me exactly how can I houserule as a player? (When I DM everything is sunshine and puppies, but being a DM means you don't get to play and if you are a player you don't DM)

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If your DM is happy with the sorcerer and doesn't think it needs a change, why would they use any changes WotC puts out?

Alternatively... you talk to your DM. Explain how you like the class but are unhappy and propose a few small tweaks. Give them a range or options and begin a dialogue.

Make a new spell or two and work with them to balance it. Make a feat. Create a new subclass.

Coroc said:

Ups, sorry I was in a hurry and misread that, and also with twinned fireball you are of course correct. Still 8 3rd level spells at level 10 compared to the 3 a wizard gets makes a difference doesn't it?

And there are several spells which can be twinned, not only damaging cantrips but also utility spells.

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Any caster can use a higher-level slot to cast a lower-level spell, so both wizards and sorcerers can cast 8 spells of level 3 or higher without getting into shenanigans.

The sorcerer can, if they choose, use all their sorcery points and lower-level spells (4 1st and 3 2nd = 10 SP) to get 4 more 3rd level spells. But that's assuming they don't want to use any meta-magic or low-level utility/defensive spells like mage armor (admittedly redundant for draconic sorcs), shield, invisibility, or misty step. If they want to save their low-level magic for that, they get 2 3rd-level spells out of just their sorcery points.

The 10th level wizard, on the other hand, can get an additional 5th level spell, or a 3rd and a 2nd, out of their Arcane Recovery feature. That does require a short rest, but you rarely blow through 8 mid-to-high level spells in a single battle anyway.

[MENTION=907]Staffan[/MENTION] [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]

Oh now i see the prob, i was in good belief the sorc could get something by converting

the level 4 and 5 slots to get more level 3 castings and cherrypicked fireball for its damage

and ae potential, but it does not make any sense to use the level 4 slots for that purpose,

because you would get less than the 5 sp needed for that new level 3 slot and even with level

5 you would just be on par and better of casting the fireball as a higher level slot.


And i see another prob with converting the lower level slots to get 5 sp for a new 3rd level

slot, it requires a bonus action and can get really fiddly midcombat. Your sorc PC is

constantly confronted with numerical problems. That is maybe an issue which should be fixed

somehow for real.


But let us see if i was so wrong if we take another example by using level 10 sorcerer and

level 5 spells. Asuming you could somehow convert your lower level slots in a meaningful order

to always achieve 7 sp needed that would be

10 + 4 + 6 + 9 + 12 sp = 41 sp

so that would mean only 5 level 5 spells and 1 level 4 spell. taking the fireball again for

conveniance you could cast it 5 times at 5th and 1 time at 4rth level

Lets compare to the wizard he can cast it 2 times at 5th 3 times at 4rth and 3 times at third

w/o arcane recovery

That is not so much difference as i had thought.

The sorc doing it like the wizard can get an additional 4 fireballs at level 3 by taking his

initial 10 and the 10 from converting all of his 1st and 2nd level slots.


The only difference it does make if it is level 5 spells than the wizard falls off.

The sorc can cast 5 level 5 spells and the wizard 2 at level 10. Now we must try to find a

level 5 spell which really shines if you can cast it very often.

The sorc got

Animate Objects
Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Creation
Dominate Person
Hold Monster
Insect Plague
Seeming
Telekinesis
Teleportation Circle
Wall of Stone

The wiz got some more but that is not the point here.

So it is only clouidkill and cone of cold for damage potential that does not seem convincing.

How about a zombie apocalypse, lets take animate dead and see if we can get a bigger army than the wizard.

It creates
One undead cast at level 3
three undead if cast at level 4 and
five undead if cast at level 5

that is 3x1 + 3x3 + 2x5 =22 Zombies for the wizard using slots 3,4,5

and 1x3 + 5x5 = 28 Zombies for the sorc


There you go the Sorcerer is actually the better necromancer

Coroc said:

How about a zombie apocalypse, lets take animate dead and see if we can get a bigger army than the wizard.

It creates
One undead cast at level 3
three undead if cast at level 4 and
five undead if cast at level 5

that is 3x1 + 3x3 + 2x5 =22 Zombies for the wizard using slots 3,4,5

and 1x3 + 5x5 = 28 Zombies for the sorc


There you go the Sorcerer is actually the better necromancer

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The necromancer also gains an additional undead free when casting Animate Dead (though I am personally not sure how that ability interacts with casting the spell at a higher slot). This also does not mention that a Necromancer's summons will have more HP and deal more damage. But the biggest glaring problem of all is how the Sorcerer is getting the Animate Dead spell when it is not on their spell list?

Coroc said:

IBut my question still stands: The sorc using the rule of converting slots to sp and converting them back into high level spell slots seems very powerful compared to a wizard, even if it is not a fire sorc. No wizard can dish out that amount of high level nova casting. So why do those thinking the wiz is better not use the conversion rule which is in the PHB???

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I don't think nova power is a sufficient metric. A sorcerer who does that doesn't have those other spell slots. Hopefully they don't need them the rest of the day. For a sorcerer to have proper balance, their sorcery points that let them do extra stuff with metamagic or create new spell slots, shouldn't take away from the basic spell slots they get as a full caster (which is what you are doing when you convert slots to points).

"I can blow all my daily resources in one or two fights" is not a feature in my book.

[MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] Darn, what is it that in this thread i overread so many things.That army of undead thing was meant as a joke rather anyway.

But with all people correcting my bs posts and rethinking the class i start to ask myself
if the metamagic alone which seem to be the obvious use for sp, although a nice mechanic, is enough to reflect the sorcerer principle of previous editions.

For me coming from 2e/3e a sorc is someone who can cast more spells daily than a wizard
with a limited selection and maybe to greater devastating effect.

With my missbeliefs i thought that 5e would do that, but now i am not so sure.

[MENTION=6677017]Sword of Spirit[/MENTION]

The more i think about the actual potential of a sorc i start to wonder if that nova potential compared to a wizard really exists. I mean it should in a way, but does it?

Aldarc said:

The necromancer also gains an additional undead free when casting Animate Dead (though I am personally not sure how that ability interacts with casting the spell at a higher slot). This also does not mention that a Necromancer's summons will have more HP and deal more damage. But the biggest glaring problem of all is how the Sorcerer is getting the Animate Dead spell when it is not on their spell list?

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Its on the clerics spell list, which the Favoured Soul gets access to.