D&D 5E 5e Hobgoblin stat block

evileeyore · Jun 29, 2014

While I don't have a problem with the rules as it is, I agree with Remy and the others who say "this doesn't scream Formation Fighters, it screams skirmishers who prefer to use allies, but can murder PCs in melee if they have to".

I'll have to see how this actually plays out with a group before I decide it's a little too powerful, needs nerf, or its just right.

tomBitonti · Jun 29, 2014

Wait, if the Hobgoblins got the drop on a party, why didn't they shoot at the Wizard instead of the fighter?

What happens with 2 Hobgobins and 4 Goblins?

Does the ability work if the allies don't attack? What if there were 4 goblins hidden in bushes next to the party and 2 Hobgoblins at range with bows?

Admittedly, these are contrived, but only slightly: As trained fighters, these are exactly the encounters the Hobgoblins would try to set up.

Then, which side is murdered depends on who goes first, and who sees whom first.

Thx!

TomB

Tazawa · Jun 29, 2014

tomBitonti said:
Wait, if the Hobgoblins got the drop on a party, why didn't they shoot at the Wizard instead of the fighter?

What happens with 2 Hobgobins and 4 Goblins?

Does the ability work if the allies don't attack? What if there were 4 goblins hidden in bushes next to the party and 2 Hobgoblins at range with bows?

Admittedly, these are contrived, but only slightly: As trained fighters, these are exactly the encounters the Hobgoblins would try to set up.

Then, which side is murdered depends on who goes first, and who sees whom first.

Thx!

TomB

They shot at the fighter because the wizard was behind the fighter and cleric. Pretty typical marching order.

The scenario might play out differently if there were 4 goblins hidden in bushes and two hobgoblins at range. I suspect the goblins would be cleared out pretty quickly due to their low AC and hit points. Or the goblins could be ignored with relatively safety while the party concentrates fire on the hobgoblins. The hobgoblins would likely get a few more attacks in with Martial Advantage but I don't think the ability is going to be encounter breaking.

I think Martial Advantage is the way it is because without it hobgoblins were pushovers in the playtest. The interesting thing about the ability is that it is more effective the more hobgoblins there are, which means it scales very well and hobgoblins can be a serious threat at higher levels.

Of course, I might be completely wrong. Try it out yourself with a simulation and see what the result is. Or better yet, use these new hobgoblins in a game and see how your players react.

Happy gaming!

jadrax · Jun 29, 2014

Tazawa said:
I think Martial Advantage is the way it is because without it hobgoblins were pushovers in the playtest. The interesting thing about the ability is that it is more effective the more hobgoblins there are, which means it scales very well and hobgoblins can be a serious threat at higher levels.

Its a lot simpler to run than the play test Hobgoblin ability, that involved nominating targets for other Hobgoblins to get advantage on. So you had to worry about set-up one one monsters turn and pay off on another.

This doesn't have that issue, and also I suspect works exactly like sneak attack, which is going to quickly become one of those core abilities which most people will memorize the mechanics for.

Cyberen · Jun 29, 2014

jadrax said:
This doesn't have that issue, and also I suspect works exactly like sneak attack, which is going to quickly become one of those core abilities which most people will memorize the mechanics for.

I guess you are right.
This is what I find troublesome : 5e Sneak Attack is a good pick if you want to give a dude proficiency in fighting in formation. Having Sneak Attack, Phalanx and Rogue in the same bucket, and Phalanx not in the Fighter bucket, is something I will have to wrap my mind around

Rabbitbait · Jun 29, 2014

Nagol said:
Lord, no.

It works best when a small group of Hobgoblins stand way at the back and use an ally to engage the party. The skirmishers go as defensive as they can and let the Hob rain hell down from long range. Getting into melee in contra-indicated since it is more likely you'll be targeted as a major damage dealer.

One Hobgoblin and say 2-3 goblins can ruin a lot of parties' days that way.

I'm going to wait till I see the rules on this as I would hope (and would call) that if you are shooting at an enemy who is in melee combat with an ally, then there is some sort of penalty. I would put disadvantage on the attack for ease of play, but more realistically I would say that there is a good chance of shooting your ally by accident.

Rabbitbait · Jun 29, 2014

Rabbitbait said:
I'm going to wait till I see the rules on this as I would hope (and would call) that if you are shooting at an enemy who is in melee combat with an ally, then there is some sort of penalty. I would put disadvantage on the attack for ease of play, but more realistically I would say that there is a good chance of shooting your ally by accident.

Aargh. Quoting myself. I hope that's not some sort of forum crime. Um. What was I going to say...

Oh yes. As written, I like them. They are scary and there is a good threat of death, but are really quite manageable for a prepared party.

Maliki67 · Jun 29, 2014

I was discussing this ability with my son, since he comes from the newer editions, I wanted to get his input on the martial advantage ability.

I was surprised that even he thought it was a bit much and offered that perhaps it should only work when the hobgoblin's ally also has the Martial Advantage ability, which makes it less like a rogues sneak attack, and more like two skilled warriors fighting in tandem.

evileeyore · Jun 29, 2014

Rabbitbait said:
I'm going to wait till I see the rules on this as I would hope (and would call) that if you are shooting at an enemy who is in melee combat with an ally, then there is some
sort of penalty. I would put disadvantage on the attack for ease of play, but more realistically I would say that there is a good chance of shooting your ally by accident.

I'd only bother with it if I was doing tactical combat. Then it would
be: If you have to fire through squares/hexes occupied by enemies or allies you are at disadvantage. If you miss the attack, make an attack against each intervening target starting with the closest until you hit or miss all targets.

I would not grant the target cover based on the intervening combatants.

fjw70 · Jun 29, 2014

thalmin said:
I think as a DM I would interpret "ally who is not incapacitated" as someone who is actually a fighting ally, using a looser interpretation of "incapacitated."

Exactly. This is what people mean by common sense rulings.

D&D 5E 5e Hobgoblin stat block

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