D&D 5E can warlocks be good guys?

jayoungr · Feb 20, 2015

Kamikaze Midget said:
(and for the Oath of Devotion specifically)

Many who sweart this oath are devoted to gods of law and good...

The way I parse that, the significant part is "of law and good." That is, "Many who swear this oath are devoted to gods of law and good, but some are devoted to gods of chaos and/or evil," not "Many who who swear this oath are devoted to gods of law and good, but some are not devoted to any god at all."

The default context pretty much explicitly does NOT rely on gods, but rather it is the oath and dedication to higher ideals that grant a paladin their powers.

The default context reads to me like a paladin needs an oath and a patron deity. Without the oath, you're a devout fighter. Without the patron deity, you're a fighter who believes in an ideal.

Thyrwyn · Feb 20, 2015

Kamikaze Midget said:
Sure, but nothing about "divine" magic mandates that it comes from gods.

I agree 100% (the term is bolded in the PHB, not for added emphasis) - in terms of the 5e "default" setting, paladins power comes from their oaths, not gods - that was the point of that quotation.

YMMV according to your campaign setting. In my longest running setting, the gods have no direct control over who wields power in their name - divine magic comes from the caster's faith alone, not the object of that faith.

Thyrwyn · Feb 20, 2015

jayoungr said:
The way I parse that...

The default context reads to me like a paladin needs an oath and a patron deity. Without the oath, you're a devout fighter. Without the patron deity, you're a fighter who believes in an ideal.

PHB p. 205 seems to disagree with you. It specifically says that paladins get their divine magic from their oaths.

jayoungr · Feb 20, 2015

Thyrwyn said:
PHB p. 205 seems to disagree with you. It specifically says that paladins get their divine magic from their oaths.

Are you referring to this?

"...all are bound by oaths that grant them power to do their sacred works. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin's power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god..."

Those two sentences, taken together, are what make me think a paladin needs both an oath and a patron. Saying that the paladin's power comes "as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god" parses to me as the god being still involved, just in a different way from the case of a cleric.

Maybe someone should ask a developer about this next time there's a Q&A session. Not that it matters for individual tables, of course; the paladin's power source is more a matter of roleplay than mechanics and can be flavored according to a group's taste.

GSHamster · Feb 20, 2015

Mistwell said:
I think the Dresden Files books (particularly the most recent one - Skin Game) demonstrate pretty well that a Warlock can be a good guy. Mild spoilers for those who have not read it yet and don't want to be spoiled: [sblock]Not that Harry Dresden is a Warlock. But his patron is an evil (or at best neutral-nasty) Fey, and the Winter Knight portion of his powers comes from her, along with certain evil (or at least neutral-nasty) impulses he resists as best he can. But he remains good, and goes on missions along with evil people and manages to stay good while thwarting their evil plans.[/sblock]

[sblock]One could even say that Dresden is an example of a character with a celestial pact, given his dealings with Uriel.[/sblock]

Thyrwyn · Feb 20, 2015

RE: Harry Dresden

[sblock]He certainly had an infernal pact with Lash...Hellfire. Just sayin'.[/sblock]

Mirtek · Feb 20, 2015

BigVanVader said:
And that all the "great power" your Pact gives you just makes you kind of comparable to the many, many other types of adventurers out there.

And before the pact these many, many other types of adventurers out there were just better than you and you couldn't match them.

If an extraplanar entity makes you able to run as fast as Usain Bolt it doesn't matter that Usain can do it on his own without needing a pact. You couldn't and then suddenly you can.

steeldragons said:
Bahamut is a terrible example, specifically because he is a deity.

Well, some of the sample patrons in the PHB are deities

BigVanVader · Feb 20, 2015

Mirtek said:
And before the pact these many, many other types of adventurers out there were just better than you and you couldn't match them.

If an extraplanar entity makes you able to run as fast as Usain Bolt it doesn't matter that Usain can do it on his own without needing a pact. You couldn't and then suddenly you can.

Incredible, you're now good enough to look at the DM in dismay while you try and make your death saves. Thank you for your gift, Great Old One.