D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

Sunseeker · Feb 7, 2018

Elfcrusher said:
Um, I think there's a 4: "Putting official prices on magic items would potentially (probably?) have a detrimental* effect on the game because it would normalize the idea that magic items are easily bought and sold. Future arguments about 6e, 7e, and 8e would cite the existence of prices in 5e as evidence that there are supposed to be magic stores."

*Admittedly, by my biased definition of 'detrimental'. Sort of like the Rapier. YMMV.

That seems really like a more fluffed up version of 3: Don't want it and don't want Wizards to waste time on it.

I still find the argument strange that putting prices on things means people are going to argue that means there should be a store selling it.

Have your players argued that with you?

Because when I tell my table there aren't magic item stores, they just shrug and carry on. Do I just have really amenable players?

Hussar · Feb 7, 2018

shidaku said:
That seems really like a more fluffed up version of 3: Don't want it and don't want Wizards to waste time on it.

I still find the argument strange that putting prices on things means people are going to argue that means there should be a store selling it.

Have your players argued that with you?

Because when I tell my table there aren't magic item stores, they just shrug and carry on. Do I just have really amenable players?

Note that part of this argument is due to the fact that at least one person was insisting that the price list be included specifically so that his players could buy magic items 3e buffet style. So, even if there isn't an actual physical store (3e didn't have them), the notion is that that the new magic price lists would be intended for groups who wanted to hand the DMG to the players and let them buy whatever they could afford rather than waste gold on downtime.

It's not like the argument came out of nowhere.

But, thinking about this, there is an idea in here. A UA article which has a big table. In column 1, you list all the magic items in D&D in alphabetical order - just the names. Column 2 lists the DMG prices. Column 3 lists prices based on a la carte player buying. Column 4 lists prices based on impact to world building and goes high - sort of an Eberron selling guide. Column 5 lists prices for a low magic world.

Then give advice as to how to adjust the numbers based on your individual campaigns. I could see something like this being a useful baseline to start from.

Kobold Boots · Feb 7, 2018

Hussar said:
Note that part of this argument is due to the fact that at least one person was insisting that the price list be included specifically so that his players could buy magic items 3e buffet style. So, even if there isn't an actual physical store (3e didn't have them), the notion is that that the new magic price lists would be intended for groups who wanted to hand the DMG to the players and let them buy whatever they could afford rather than waste gold on downtime.

It's not like the argument came out of nowhere.

But, thinking about this, there is an idea in here. A UA article which has a big table. In column 1, you list all the magic items in D&D in alphabetical order - just the names. Column 2 lists the DMG prices. Column 3 lists prices based on a la carte player buying. Column 4 lists prices based on impact to world building and goes high - sort of an Eberron selling guide. Column 5 lists prices for a low magic world.

Then give advice as to how to adjust the numbers based on your individual campaigns. I could see something like this being a useful baseline to start from.

I'd agree with this provided that.

1. There was a discussion somewhere in the rules about how an economy is affected by the sale of magic items and the kinds of things that nobility and centers of power would be doing to shore themselves up in that sort of situation.

2. There was some effort to reconcile this against what an average day's upkeep is for an average person given the power level of magic in the campaign. Much as there have been discussions about how an adventuring troupe's actions and cash flow affect local economies in earlier versions of the DMG.

As I've stated previously, I'm ok with selling magic items if the setting supports it and it makes sense. However, my sensibilities lie more towards "magic items are way more special than that" so if I'm going to make a plunge there and bring "magic shoppes" into my games I want the economy to be consistent or make sense.

Lanefan · Feb 7, 2018

Elfcrusher said:
Ah, ok. So you (and I believe Satyrn) put waaaaay more importance on pricing consistency than I do.

I still don't understand why consistency is important to you (and would love to understand it) but enlightenment seems just around the corner.

First, there's two types of consistency; and both are important to me.

The first is consistency within the same item. If a +1 longsword is 1500 g.p. here I want it to be 1500 g.p. everywhere - very artificial, yes, but done specifically to prevent the game turning into an endless exercise of buy-low-sell-high as the PCs travel from town to town.

The second is consistency between different items. If a +1 longsword is 1500 g.p. then it only makes sense that a +1 battleaxe is also going to be around 1500 g.p. and a +2 longsword will be somewhat more than 1500. The headache here comes when trying to compare basic items that aren't really the same e.g. a +1 longsword vs a +1 chain mail vs a +1 ring of protection vs. an Onyx Dog, in order to maintain some consistency. If nothing else, a price list shows what the designers have done with these comparisons; and even if you don't agree with the results and change them for your game you at least have that starting point.

The basic prices are easy enough to track or remember with common-ish items e.g. various potions, basic +1 weapons and armour, and so on; but nearly impossible to remember or self-track when it comes to items seen maybe once every few years at best e.g. a Folding Boat or a Broom of Flying. Here a price list, even if it isn't perfect, becomes hugely useful.

cbwjm · Feb 7, 2018

Satyrn said:
It's really just that I'd rather have the decision already made for, rather than having to pick from a range. This list is a tool that I actually would use, and so I'd rather have had it included in Xanathar's instead of the other stuff I never will
(like the expanded, detailed tool uses stuff; I prefer a skill/tool system left totally up to my DM discretion)

Therein lies the issue with every book released, you can't make everyone happy with the content. You can guarantee that if the pricing was put in Xanthar's and this was a thread about crafting rules that there would be people making the argument that crafting rules should have been included instead of magic item pricing because they'd prefer to use their own system for pricing magical items.

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Kobold Boots · Feb 7, 2018

I'm probably being silly but after being a part of this thread (for better or worse) for however long it's been in play, I just took some time to do a search on magic items in the 5e DMG and found about 120 instances of the term.

Within, I found general guidelines for crafting magic items and selling them. While it's not a list of prices, I feel pretty stupid partaking in this thread because players can make their own items ("3rd level wizard can make a +1 item") and find buyers for their extras if in major cities and there's a nice little chart that will tell you based on rarity as a base how much more or how little you'll make off the sale once you find a buyer (as well as how long it'll take)

Of course, both things are downtime activities.

I know this isn't exactly the point of the thread but it makes me wonder how many of these threads we have on enworld start without people actually reading the rules?

Be well
KB

Edit PS: In the same section, Eberron and other settings of high magic are mentioned as places where magic shops exist. So if anything, I think my original argument of "they just haven't gotten far enough into their production cycle to give you what you want" is accurate. You'll get that list once Eberron hits shelves as a setting.

Tovrin · Feb 7, 2018

jaelis said:
I am also pretty happy that this is left to the discretion of the DM.

Hasn't it ALWAYS been up to the discretion of the DM? Just because something is in tbe books, doesn't mean it has to be in your campaign. Hell! I don't have Teiflings or Warlocks as they are not campaign/setting appropriate.

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Corpsetaker · Feb 7, 2018

I think some people have forgotten how to take control of their games.

Tovrin · Feb 8, 2018

Corpsetaker said:
I think some people have forgotten how to take control of their games.

Probably. Or they don't have the confidence to say "no" to players. I guess our group is pretty into every campaign being unique and different, so house rules are par-for-the-course. We take the "books are more a guide" very much to heart.

That said, if magic items ever are on sale in my campaign, it'll likely be by auction and players may have to bid against someone richer than they are. In fact, that leaves open a whole new story hook for the party's rogues. ;-)

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MoonSong · Feb 8, 2018

Kobold Boots said:
I'm probably being silly but after being a part of this thread (for better or worse) for however long it's been in play, I just took some time to do a search on magic items in the 5e DMG and found about 120 instances of the term.

Within, I found general guidelines for crafting magic items and selling them. While it's not a list of prices, I feel pretty stupid partaking in this thread because players can make their own items ("3rd level wizard can make a +1 item") and find buyers for their extras if in major cities and there's a nice little chart that will tell you based on rarity as a base how much more or how little you'll make off the sale once you find a buyer (as well as how long it'll take)

Of course, both things are downtime activities.

I know this isn't exactly the point of the thread but it makes me wonder how many of these threads we have on enworld start without people actually reading the rules?

Be well
KB

Edit PS: In the same section, Eberron and other settings of high magic are mentioned as places where magic shops exist. So if anything, I think my original argument of "they just haven't gotten far enough into their production cycle to give you what you want" is accurate. You'll get that list once Eberron hits shelves as a setting.

A big part of the problem is that not all campaigns can afford actual downtime. Maybe some campaigns have no problem with taking a few weeks or months to hunt for a recipe and all of the materials needed to craft, but some other campaigns are story based and many times are on a clock. There is no time to go questing for a couple of night goggles for the party scout before venturing into the underdark to save the world or a foldable boat or whatever quirky fun item may make the experience more fun.

D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

Sunseeker

Guest

Hussar

Legend

Kobold Boots

Banned

Lanefan

Victoria Rules

cbwjm

Seb-wejem

Kobold Boots

Banned

Tovrin

First Post

Corpsetaker

First Post

Tovrin

First Post

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin

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