D&D 5E Updating Improved Familiar to 5e?

Improved Familiar
Prerequisite: Ability to cast Find Familiar, 5th level
Your strength and studies have unlocked a more powerful version of the familiar-binding ritual, allowing you to gain the aid of a stronger being than the common mage could hope to summon.

Effect:

You replace the normal Familiar list. Instead, when you cast Find Familiar, you can bind any Tiny or Small creature of the Beast, Monstrosity, Aberration, Undead, Construct, Fey, Celestial or Fiend type with a Challenge Rating of 1 or lower. Beasts you take as familiars change their type to your choice of Celestial, Fey, Fiend, Aberration, Construct or Undead.
When you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack of its own. If you already had this ability, then you can now spend your Reaction to allow your familiar to make its attack instead.
When you reach level 10, your Familiar can be a creature of the appropriate type with a challenge rating of 2 or less.
When you reach level 15, your Familiar can be a creature of the appropriate type with a challenge rating of 3 or less.

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Especially for familiars with decent Int/Wis scores and opposable thumbs - the already useful familiar becomes a very useful, potentially very powerful tool. I'm all for a bit more variety but not at the cost of a the Pact of Chain lock's shtick (uber familiar) or turning the spirit summoned by Find Familiar into a mighty-morphing mega shapeshifter.

Thinking about this more, it might be better to determine exactly what is being looked for out of an upgraded familiar.

My feeling is that toughness is part of that, or at least risk of dying is mitigated somewhat. How about a simple mechanical increase of defenses on an existing familiar type? Or you can now temporarily dismiss your familiar as a reaction?

Or perhaps some additional spell casting. Maybe give it a cantrip of its own or something? Mage hand seems like it would be good here actually.

If you want a mount, the feat allows you to make it big so you can ride, and gives to advantage on ride checks or something.

My thinking here is that you are keeping the nature of the familiar without opening it up to potential exploits. Since the familiar has stats of a creature, and you can change them relatively fluidly (a recast away), and no one wants to step on the toes of the warlock, it seems feats where they are going to add equally to all familiars are going to be better choices. Also seems like this could easy be a multi-feature feat pretty easily.

Improved familiar
- you can temporarily dismiss your familiar as a reaction
- as a bonus action, you can cause you familiar to grow in size such that you (and only you) can use it as a mount. You gain advantage on ride rolls while riding it. It does not otherwise increase in strength or attack capability.
- your familiar can now use the Mage hand cantrip at will. This requires your action to use, as you direct it.

Fanaelialae said:

It's funny you should say that, because I was worried that it might give too much.

Based on the Martial Adept feat, which is one of the clearest feature granting feats, a feat is worth less than a major class feature. Martial Adept grants two maneuvers and a 1d6 superiority die vs the three maneuvers and 4d8 superiority dice granted by Combat Superiority. Admittedly, not all feature are created equal, they are both 3rd level features and both the fighter and the warlock gain little else at that level (the fighter gains a tool proficiency and the warlock adds a known spell), so it's not unfair to assume rough parity (albeit, differently distributed with respect to the pillars of the game). That said, I recognize that Combat Superiority is one of the features that is generally considered to be a bit too good at the low levels, so it's more fair to say that they are loosely equal but Combat Superiority is the stronger of the two. Still, the Martial Adept feat grants less than 50% of what Combat Superiority gives you. By comparison, my Improved Familiar feat grants well over 50% of what PoC grants, so if anything I'd say my feat is already too much.

Just my two cents.

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But not all class features are equal. Continuing to look at Battlemaster I don't think anyone would say you get equal utility from Combat Superiority and from Know Your Enemy. Martial Adept is focusing on the main defining ability of the Battlemaster, while Warlocks have both Pact and Patron that shape them a lot.

Simple if subjective test - if you swapped out Battlemaster's Combat Superiority for Warlock's Pact of the Chain, do you think that the resulting class would be picked by as many people? I don't.

Martial Adept gives about a quarter of a strong, if not among the strongest, subclass features. But that doesn't mean that it should give that little of other subclass features because the features aren't even.

I was going more of utility compared to other feats. You have the opportunity cost of missing an ASI or another feat. Here's my questions:

Would a variant human be tempted to take this at character creation?
Would this get serious consideration as a first feat?
Would this get serious consideration as your first feat once your prime ability score is 20?
Would I take this in one of my last feat slots after I got my primary wants? (This has lesser burden, but also requires decent scaling.)

(Assume all are prefaced with "outside a flavor build" - I'll do things just to get a flavor and build the character I want even if it's far from a good choice.)

A good feat hopefully gets a yes to 2-3 of these - it's not too powerful it eclipses other choices, but it's worth taking. There are feats in the PHB I still haven't seen played, and feats I've seen at least once in every party I adventure with.

(Though in retrospect, I don't think I've seen a lot of Martial Adept - it might also be slightly underpowered as a feat.)

Blue said:

But not all class features are equal. Continuing to look at Battlemaster I don't think anyone would say you get equal utility from Combat Superiority and from Know Your Enemy. Martial Adept is focusing on the main defining ability of the Battlemaster, while Warlocks have both Pact and Patron that shape them a lot.

Simple if subjective test - if you swapped out Battlemaster's Combat Superiority for Warlock's Pact of the Chain, do you think that the resulting class would be picked by as many people? I don't.

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I would say that your Pact Boon is a fairly defining feature as well. I would expect a fairly distinct play style from a warlock who chooses Pact of the Chain, compared to one who chooses Pact of the Blade.

I offer a counterexample - if you swapped out the Warlock's Pack of the Chain for the Battlemaster's Combat Superiority, do you think that the resulting Pact Boon would be picked by as many people. I don't. I don't think it's that these abilities are dramatically out of line with each other, but rather that they complement the class they are found in. Sure, PotC doesn't give the combat boost granted by Combat Superiority, but it's hard to argue that having a flying, invisible scout isn't a useful advantage in the exploration pillar (which Combat Superiority doesn't support at all).

Martial Adept gives about a quarter of a strong, if not among the strongest, subclass features. But that doesn't mean that it should give that little of other subclass features because the features aren't even.

I was going more of utility compared to other feats. You have the opportunity cost of missing an ASI or another feat. Here's my questions:

Would a variant human be tempted to take this at character creation?
Would this get serious consideration as a first feat?
Would this get serious consideration as your first feat once your prime ability score is 20?
Would I take this in one of my last feat slots after I got my primary wants? (This has lesser burden, but also requires decent scaling.)

(Assume all are prefaced with "outside a flavor build" - I'll do things just to get a flavor and build the character I want even if it's far from a good choice.)

A good feat hopefully gets a yes to 2-3 of these - it's not too powerful it eclipses other choices, but it's worth taking. There are feats in the PHB I still haven't seen played, and feats I've seen at least once in every party I adventure with.

(Though in retrospect, I don't think I've seen a lot of Martial Adept - it might also be slightly underpowered as a feat.)

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That's a good list of questions, but it's nonetheless very situational. If someone plays a variant human mage who wants a pseudodragon familiar (like I did back in the 2nd edition days) then I can't see that person not taking this feat. If, on the other hand, that person is all about maximizing their DPR then my Improved Familiar feat is not going to be their first choice. IMO, however, if it were the optimal choice for a DPR optimizer, then the feat would almost certainly be broken since familiars bring a lot of functionality to the exploration pillar already (and an improved familiar is only going to add to that).

raleel said:

Thinking about this more, it might be better to determine exactly what is being looked for out of an upgraded familiar.

My feeling is that toughness is part of that, or at least risk of dying is mitigated somewhat. How about a simple mechanical increase of defenses on an existing familiar type? Or you can now temporarily dismiss your familiar as a reaction?

Or perhaps some additional spell casting. Maybe give it a cantrip of its own or something? Mage hand seems like it would be good here actually.

If you want a mount, the feat allows you to make it big so you can ride, and gives to advantage on ride checks or something.

My thinking here is that you are keeping the nature of the familiar without opening it up to potential exploits. Since the familiar has stats of a creature, and you can change them relatively fluidly (a recast away), and no one wants to step on the toes of the warlock, it seems feats where they are going to add equally to all familiars are going to be better choices. Also seems like this could easy be a multi-feature feat pretty easily.

Improved familiar
- you can temporarily dismiss your familiar as a reaction
- as a bonus action, you can cause you familiar to grow in size such that you (and only you) can use it as a mount. You gain advantage on ride rolls while riding it. It does not otherwise increase in strength or attack capability.
- your familiar can now use the Mage hand cantrip at will. This requires your action to use, as you direct it.

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I quite like the idea about being able to dismiss your familiar as a reaction. I think I'll add that to my version, although I think I'll make it in response to when your familiar would take damage.

Making it a mount is problematic. For starters, with no strength increase, a familiar can't possibly carry you and your gear. Ignoring that issue, some options are still arguably too good (such as the owl, which has flight and doesn't provoke opportunity attacks).

I'm ambivalent about the cantrip idea. It doesn't mesh with my concept of a familiar, but I don't see it being mechanically problematic.

Fanaelialae said:

I quite like the idea about being able to dismiss your familiar as a reaction. I think I'll add that to my version, although I think I'll make it in response to when your familiar would take damage.

Making it a mount is problematic. For starters, with no strength increase, a familiar can't possibly carry you and your gear. Ignoring that issue, some options are still arguably too good (such as the owl, which has flight and doesn't provoke opportunity attacks).

I'm ambivalent about the cantrip idea. It doesn't mesh with my concept of a familiar, but I don't see it being mechanically problematic.

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Nod, mostly spitballing ideas.

As for a mount, the idea was that it is a utility, and not a new form of attack. Make it a magic saddle if you like I always liked the idea of the 4e wizard being able to ride his ooze mount

I think the important part really is that, instead of making bigger familiars (including my own thing about taking CR1 animals from the book) you just make the current familiar better in some way that is not overlapping with a current power set of familiars. That means no magic resistance addition, for example. Maybe no range extension, though maybe a small bump such that it is obviously not a replacement for voice of the chain master. No get an attack, because that steps right on pact of the chain. I could see gaining your familiars senses without blinding yourself. Or your familiar gains your proficiency bonus to saves and/or skill checks.

raleel said:

Nod, mostly spitballing ideas.

As for a mount, the idea was that it is a utility, and not a new form of attack. Make it a magic saddle if you like I always liked the idea of the 4e wizard being able to ride his ooze mount

I think the important part really is that, instead of making bigger familiars (including my own thing about taking CR1 animals from the book) you just make the current familiar better in some way that is not overlapping with a current power set of familiars. That means no magic resistance addition, for example. Maybe no range extension, though maybe a small bump such that it is obviously not a replacement for voice of the chain master. No get an attack, because that steps right on pact of the chain. I could see gaining your familiars senses without blinding yourself. Or your familiar gains your proficiency bonus to saves and/or skill checks.

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Cool.

Yeah, it could work if you replace certain parts of its stat-block with generic stats while functioning as a mount: replace normal modes of movement with a speed of 50 feet (non-flying), and increase carrying capacity to 500 lbs. There are definitely folks who would be irked, however, that their owl familiar mount can run as fast as the cat familiar mount, but can't fly. I don't have a problem with it though (I like chocobos).

Fanaelialae said:

Cool.

Yeah, it could work if you replace certain parts of its stat-block with generic stats while functioning as a mount: replace normal modes of movement with a speed of 50 feet (non-flying), and increase carrying capacity to 500 lbs. There are definitely folks who would be irked, however, that their owl familiar mount can run as fast as the cat familiar mount, but can't fly. I don't have a problem with it though (I like chocobos).

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Yea, I guess I don't have much of a problem with the flying. Brooms of flying are uncommon and all. To each his own on that I think.

This touches on a tangential debate about power levels in campaigns and what is real power that I'm going to try and avoid

raleel said:

Yea, I guess I don't have much of a problem with the flying. Brooms of flying are uncommon and all. To each his own on that I think.

This touches on a tangential debate about power levels in campaigns and what is real power that I'm going to try and avoid

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A broom of flying is something that the DM has control over. If you don't like the idea of the wizard casting spells out of reach of your melee monsters, just don't put one in your campaign. If you think it would be awesome to have a player's witch character fly around on a broom, let them find one. You can even choose at what level the player gets the broom (maybe you're not okay with it from levels 1 to 4, but from 5th on it's copacetic). If it would be problematic in one campaign but not the other, you can just leave it out of that one campaign and odds are that the players will never even notice.

A feat, on the other hand, is something the players have a lot of control over with respect to when they take it. Unless the feat has a level-related requirement, a variant human might start with it at level 1. Granted, if you house-rule in a feat that allows flight at level 1, you ought to be okay with PCs flying at level 1.

Additionally, an owl mount doesn't provoke attacks for flight-based movement, so a wizard can literally zoom in and out delivering touch attacks without having to risk retaliation from melee. Flying I'm okay with, but always-on disengage ought to be a feat unto itself (even the Mobile feat isn't quite as good in that respect), and I think that a feat that grants flying and always-on disengage and other perks is probably beyond the scope of a balanced feat. Granted, ranged attackers can pop the mount out of existence with ease, but that's what feather fall is for.

Indeed, to each his own.

To just clear two things up...

Familiar Steed was just an idle thought as to how to bring over some of the bigger improved familiars from 3.5; as I said, you could have Krenshars, Worgs, Winter Wolves, and Hippogriffs as familiars with the feat in 3.5. I don't consider it essential, certainly not until the default Improved Familiar works. It simply came to me because, well, isn't the image of a necromancer mounted on a skeletal steed, or a warlock sworn to Cryonax/Father Llyemic/Levistus riding a winter wolf, or a war-mage on a hippogriff, an iconic fantasy image?

So, yes, we should focus on just Improved Familiar for what it can do in its own right first.

Secondly... let's be honest amongst ourselves: IS there anything we can actually do to make a Pact of the Chain Warlock still be relevant with this feat? More to the point, is it even important that we do so?

Let's face it, the Warlock's level 3 Pact feature isn't a huge game-related matter. They get either an improved familiar to what wizards can have, a pseudo-spellbook with 3 non-Warlock cantrips, or a free magic. Flavorful, yeah, but hardly character defining.

Maybe, just maybe, we should worry about making Improved Familiar work in general first, and then worry about making the Warlock get some extra goodies about it afterwards? Because I agree that a Warlock should receive more benefits from Improved Familiar than a Wizard, but if you put a wizard with the feat next to a PoC warlock who lacks it, then it's okay for the wizard to be beefier, because they've spent a rare feat slot for it and the warlock's just relying on a low level, but similar, class feature.

I do agree with [MENTION=53980]Fanaelialae[/MENTION]'s observation that my first draft of the feat was too open to abuse, and that such a interpretation of the feat should define the available familiars more clearly than that.

Still, what I want out of Improved Familiar is the ability to take more exotic creatures as familiars. This is the feat I want to be able to use to give my Undying Warlock a Crawling Claw or an Undead Bat familiar, the feat that will give my Wizard an Al'miraj, Pooka or Cranium Rat that is willing to fight by their side.

In 3.5, an Improved Familiar's strength varied depending on the wizard's level. At 7th level, they averaged Challenge Rating 2, and there's at least one Challenge 3 Improved Familiar (the Hellfire Ignis) that I can think of. So, that's something we should consider for the feat; I personally think it makes a lot of sense that some feats might give bonuses as you level up, because they're broader in nature than others.