D&D 5E What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?

S'mon

Legend
Would it be fair to say you don't spend much time on the exploration pillar? It's mostly social and combat challenges?

Personally I run Stonehell Dungeon written for Labyrinth Lord in 5e, which means exploration is usually the primary pillar.
There is certainly a balancing act in how much information to reveal prior to action declaration. My general rule is that you get a Perception check with an action like "we search the room", but passive skills can also reveal hidden info. With passive scores I like to roll 20 for stuff the RAW gives static numbers to. Eg I once rolled really low for a secret door and the Tabaxi scout spotted it with her Passive Purr. :D
 

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Have you ever walked through a crowd of people, say at a busy street, fair or concert, not looking for anyone and seen someone you knew? Have you ever not noticed them and had them approach you?

Of course, but I don't presume that the players also interact with that person. Identifying a statue would be an action, unless it is painfully clear who the statue represents. But I'm talking about situations where it isn't clear, and identification requires an action. In other words, if no roll is required, I straight up tell my players what statue they see. But if a roll is required, then I don't ask them to make one until they declare an action. This is what I'm trying to get across. I don't constantly ask for rolls for actions that have not been declared. Because if I ask for a roll, this means there is a chance for failure as well, before the players have even stated an approach.

Unless the statue is hidden in some corner of the room or like... really really tiny, or otherwise obscured (like... it's one statue out of twelve with a minor discrepancy) the idea that my character would know something about the statue and not immediately notice said statue is absurd.

I didn't say you wouldn't notice the statue. I said that I wouldn't presume an action on the part of your character, if the statue was difficult to identify. I wouldn't start by asking for a roll, unless you first stated an action. If your character knows who the statue represents, I will straight up tell you that it's a statue of so-and-so, with no roll required. But if its unclear who the statue represents, then I don't ask for a roll until you say you want to identify it. That is the difference.

You and iserith might say that me calling for your character to make a knowledge roll would be a deal-breaker for you, as a player. Your gatekeeping of character knowledge behind player action is... well it's not exactly a deal-breaker for me (it would be endlessly annoying, even if I eventually got somewhat used to it), but it is indicative of a certain exacting style of DMing that, if present in aggregate, would be. And as I stated way up-thread back when this conservation was still on its original topic, there's very little that would get me to actually walk away from a game. A game which is not fun for me would be one of those.

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding here. In my style of play, the DM is not the gatekeeper of all knowledge. Sure, I might be the one who has the information, but I'm not the only one who decides if a character knows something. The player has input as well. If a player explains that his character would know something, that is basically a stated approach to me, and a reason to hand out information to that player.

What I object to, is the idea that a DM just starts off by asking for knowledge checks, before the players have declared an action to recall knowledge or identify something. If for example a room contains a statue that is hard to identify at first glance, I just describe it as such: "The room has an old statue in the middle, of which the features have eroded over time." I don't start by asking for knowledge checks, because maybe the players aren't even interested in the statue, but also because I would be throwing a chance for failure at them for something they didn't even decide to do.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Of course, but I don't presume that the players also interact with that person. Identifying a statue would be an action, unless it is painfully clear who the statue represents. But I'm talking about situations where it isn't clear, and identification requires an action. In other words, if no roll is required, I straight up tell my players what statue they see. But if a roll is required, then I don't ask them to make one until they declare an action. This is what I'm trying to get across. I don't constantly ask for rolls for actions that have not been declared. Because if I ask for a roll, this means there is a chance for failure as well, before the players have even stated an approach.

<snip>

If you have sometimes noticed someone familiar in a crowd when not scanning for them and sometimes not noticed familiar faces in a crowd in similar circumstance then I propose such discovery is neither automatic nor is it tied to a specific action or intent on the observer.

I have noticed friends and family where I didn't expect to see them. I have failed to notice friends and family where I didn't expect to see them. I know because they noticed me and said hello. Such discovery does not force an interaction: it offers a possibility for a choice that didn't exist a moment ago. I know I have decided to say hello sometimes and decided to remain apart others. I presumes those who noticed me made similar choices.

I have noticed and stopped an attempted pickpocket whilst thinking about nothing more than enjoying the concert. I certainly wasn't guardedly protecting myself.

Observation and perceptiveness act passively. One can improve one's chances of success by specifically looking for a certain thing (and as the gorilla experiment shows such concentration impairs other perception's chances of being noticed).

It should not be tied to an action. It should be based on a fortune mechanic check, preferably tied to however perceptiveness is mechanically expressed in the game.
 
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robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
Of course, but I don't presume that the players also interact with that person. Identifying a statue would be an action, unless it is painfully clear who the statue represents. But I'm talking about situations where it isn't clear, and identification requires an action. In other words, if no roll is required, I straight up tell my players what statue they see. But if a roll is required, then I don't ask them to make one until they declare an action. This is what I'm trying to get across. I don't constantly ask for rolls for actions that have not been declared. Because if I ask for a roll, this means there is a chance for failure as well, before the players have even stated an approach.

Agree with all of this, my only niggle is with the term “roll is required”. I’m assuming it’s shorthand for saying some interaction by the PC is necessary to gain the information? Given the chance for misunderstanding on this thread I thought I’d check. :)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The only game I ever walked out on was one where the DM took it personally when I had to work during a game. Every time I had to work, my PC died that night. After 4-5 times(the last few just testing the theory), I let him know that I had better things to do than waste my time playing at the games I could make, since my PC was just going to end up dead the next time work conflicted with his schedule.

No, wait. That's not true. I just remembered that there was a second time where I was invited to play with a new group. The first night the players had their PCs literally talking about hit points, armor class and other game terms. At the end of the night I just politely told them that this wasn't my kind of game and didn't return.
 

Identifying a statue would be an action, unless it is painfully clear who the statue represents. But I'm talking about situations where it isn't clear, and identification requires an action.
What if it's painfully clear to anyone who recognizes it, but someone who didn't recognize it would have no clue? Because that explains half of what I've seen on the internet. You either get it immediately, or you don't; but if you don't get it, then you don't know whether or not you're missing out on something obvious. And if you don't get it immediately, then you might be able to figure it out through context clues, but it would take time to put things together.

In my experience, if you walk into a room that has a statue, then the outcome of that action is uncertain because I don't know whether or not you would immediately recognize the statue upon entering the room. Failing to ask for a roll, in that circumstance, is denying the player a possibility of success to which they are rightfully entitled.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
If you have sometimes noticed someone familiar in a crowd when not scanning for them and sometimes not noticed familiar faces in a crowd in similar circumstance then I propose such discovery is neither automatic nor is it tied to a specific action or intent on the observer.

I have noticed friends and family where I didn't expect to see them. I have failed to notice friends and family where I didn't expect to see them. I know because they noticed me and said hello. Such discovery does not force an interaction: it offers a possibility for a choice that didn't exist a moment ago. I know I have decided to say hello sometimes and decided to remain apart others. I presumes those who noticed me made similar choices.

I have noticed and stopped an attempted pickpocket whilst thinking about nothing more than enjoying the concert. I certainly wasn't guardedly protecting myself.

Observation and perceptiveness act passively. One can improve one's chances of success by specifically looking for a certain thing (and as the gorilla experiment shows such concentration impairs other perception's chances of being noticed).

It should not be tied to an action. It should be based on a fortune mechanic check, preferably tied to however perceptiveness is mechanically expressed in the game.

I've never found examples from "real life" to be very compelling arguments when discussing D&D in part because it is a game with particular rules that aren't the same as the rules that apply in "real life."

But let's examine your observations. First, whether a friend or family member in a crowd is noticed by the PC can be decided by the DM without reference to mechanics. The DM simply describes the environment as including said friend or family member. To say that the DM doesn't know whether a PC might notice a friend or family member in the crowd is strange to me. He or she can just decide that he or she does. That is especially so if the DM needs that outcome to happen (perhaps the friend or family member is a quest giver). If the DM doesn't need that outcome to happen, then this whole example is rather pointless as, so far as I can tell, you're just resolving this with a random number generator that involves no choice on the part of the player except what he or she made in character creation or advancement while at the same time assuming what the character is doing.

As for the pickpocket you thwarted, you weren't tracking, navigating, drawing a map, foraging, etc. in the manner described by the Basic Rules. In game terms, you were staying alert to hidden dangers. As a result, you noticed the pickpocket. You didn't say you were alert to hidden dangers to some other person. You likely didn't think about it at all. But if you're playing in a game with someone who can't say what your character is doing (the DM), you have to say something at some point about what the character is doing while traveling around. To do otherwise is to make the DM assume what your character is doing or, he or she having asked for a check of some kind, established what the character is doing (keeping watch for danger). You might be perfectly fine with the DM doing that. You might be fine with doing that as DM and your players are good with it. Myself and others are not. We want a say as players. It's our role in the game as players to do that, too. It's the one thing we get to do in the basic conversation of the game. What does it hurt the DM to let us do that?

"Observation and perceptiveness" do not work passively in the game in the same sense as you suggest it does in "real life." If you're staying alert for danger as you travel about, the DM may resolve any uncertainty as to whether you notice that danger with a passive Perception check. "Passive" here refers to there being no dice, not that the character isn't actively doing something. If you're performing some task other than that which is at least as distracting as some of the tasks I mentioned above, then the character has no chance of noticing the danger. (He or she might not have a chance of noticing the danger if he or she is not in the appropriate rank of the marching order.) If a character decides to look for a hidden object or creature (as with the Search action), then the DM may call for a Wisdom (Perception) check to resolve any uncertainty as to the outcome, if there's a meaningful consequence of failure.

Those are the rules of the game. They are not the same as the rules that apply to "real life." Whether you choose to play by the rules of either is up to you and not for me to judge. Unless of course I happen to be sitting at your table and keep having my character's actions established by someone other than me. Then I have to judge whether this is a game I want to continue playing.
 
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Satyrn

First Post
What if it's painfully clear to anyone who recognizes it, but someone who didn't recognize it would have no clue? Because that explains half of what I've seen on the internet. You either get it immediately, or you don't; but if you don't get it, then you don't know whether or not you're missing out on something obvious. And if you don't get it immediately, then you might be able to figure it out through context clues, but it would take time to put things together.

In my experience, if you walk into a room that has a statue, then the outcome of that action is uncertain because I don't know whether or not you would immediately recognize the statue upon entering the room. Failing to ask for a roll, in that circumstance, is denying the player a possibility of success to which they are rightfully entitled.
But what happens if you ask [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] to make that roll and he says "My character hates art. He wouldn't even give the statue a glance?" He thinks you're taking that possibility away from him.

Imaculata is waiting until her player makes clear that character actually is looking at the statue. I really don't see this as denying the player a possibility of success. It's just delaying that possibility until the player shows they care about succeeding.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
But what happens if you ask [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] to make that roll and he says "My character hates art. He wouldn't even give the statue a glance?" He thinks you're taking that possibility away from him.

Imaculata is waiting until her player makes clear that character actually is looking at the statue. I really don't see this as denying the player a possibility of success. It's just delaying that possibility until the player shows they care about succeeding.

Then the player can decline to roll and auto-fail which both faster and is less onerous than having the same player say "I check...". The trouble with waiting for positive affirmation before providing contingent information is it teaches players to play whack-a-mole by saying "I check..." at every item in a description because there may be "gotcha" information available if only they had asked.
 

Xaelvaen

Stuck in the 90s
I've primarily DMed a whopping 90% of my RPG gaming experiences, but the remaining time I've gotten to be a player has been wholly positive with a few exceptions, and in those exceptions I've suffered through the glaring issues, politely brought them up after the session in a private encounter with the Dungeon Master in question, offered up my suggestions, and hoped to bring peaceful solutions. There's also one exception to even that, where I walked in, saw the group, and turned around and left.

Instance #1 The DM was literally changing target numbers for/against certain players, and I don't mean based on approach or description, I mean purely based on out of character favoritism. "I like Suzy, she gets an AC of 15. Bob built his character well with a good Accuracy, so he gets AC 18, because I don't like combat-built characters, and Bob is dating Jane, and I don't like Jane. Sorry Bob, you missed." "But Suzy just hit on a 16..." It was glaringly obvious, but no one wanted to disrupt play so we all bit our tongues until it was over. I'm fairly certain no one was left playing that game, even those she 'favored' in the encounters. When confronted, even in private, she denied and exploded, despite the politeness of the confrontation.

Instance #2 I decided to play with 'friends of a friend' against my better judgement. When I showed up to the house, the DM looked stoned out of his gourd and two of the players were practically half-dressed and all over each other in one of the chairs. "Don't worry, they're role-playing a scene to get past a guard." That's what my 'friend' said to me when I knocked and walked in on it. I didn't even have words to describe my "Nope" to that group.
 

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