LE Paladin in Adventurer's League

Riley37 said:

I am fully on board with the 5E de-coupling of class abilities and alignments, and also the end of limits on what race and what alignment can be what class. Even so, I am a bit baffled. When this paladin uses Divine Sense, and detects a shrine to Bane, it feels evil; does the evil feel... familiar and comfortable?

As per AL rules, he's starting at level 1. When he reaches level 3, I anticipate a conversation about what oath the PC might swear. Vengeance seems the most LE-compatible to me.

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I am a huge fan of the LE paladin. Have used paladins of a god of tyranny to great effect. Here's some things we did or considered to make it run smoothly...

• A focus on law, and keeping their word. If keeping their word is part of their ethos, they can work with the party and lessen concerns about double crossing the other PCs.
• A common evil enemy, such as an evil rival. In one campaign, the party's main advisary was an out-of-favor pit fiend. The party's LE paladin served a rival fiend who rose in power from the pit fiend's fall and did not want him to regain his former status.
• Consider shifting some of the anti-evil elements of the paladin class to anti-chaos elements. This would include the eventual Oath choice. Make the paladin a force against demons, slaad and other planar agents of chaos. This further emphasizes the law angle, as opposed to an anti-good paladin.

Best of luck!

Riley37 said:

Every time he heals someone out of generosity and goodwill, that compromises his LE alignment, right? He could lose his membership in the Evil League of Evil!

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For Lawful Evil types, I like to go with a "favor bank" system. Every time the character does something for another party member the LE character marks it as a debt owed, and tries to make sure his own favor ledger remains in the black. When the time comes, LE characters will insist that their favor debt markers be honored, and takes it as a personal slight if they are not.

Riley37 said:

. This could be a case of the player claiming LE, and then acting CG on occasion... Every time he heals someone out of generosity and goodwill, that compromises his LE alignment, right? He could lose his membership in the Evil League of Evil!

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How is 'healing an ally' compromising his alignment? Even the Nazi's had doctors and field hospitals man.

Look at evil characters in fiction (Tony Soprano, Walter White and the end of Breaking Bad etc). As evil as they may be, they're still people. They have families, and display occasional acts of kindness and humanity. Not every evil PC or creature is a total psychopath. In fact very few should be. The PC who breaks into a NPC's home and murders him for annoying him or a petty greivance, and attempts to pass the actions off as 'just playing my alignment' is playing 'stupid evil' (unless the player in question has made an intentional choice in depicting a psychotic serial killer, and such depictions should be as rare as psychotic serial killers are in real life - and no sane person would want to associate with such a monster anyways).

Evil simply means 'a lack of empathy for the suffering of others' At the extreme end it can mean actual pleasure from that suffering. But even then there are exceptions; evil people rationalise that evil, and may even display traits that are contrary to their evil nature (or are subconsious means to decieve themselves that they are not evil).

For example my LE paladin refuses to harm children - he even donated money to an orphanage (being an orphan himself). Its almost a thing he clings to to try and convince himself that he is not 'really' evil. He has no compunction killing woshippers of Torm though, and would happily order the deaths of thousands in a genocial pogrom... sparing the children of course.

There arent nine broad personality types in DnD; look at the characters actions as a whole to view his alignment.

A lawful player should have a code, sense of honor (twisted as it may be), or a sense of duty and obligation. He should generally keep his word, respect authority and favor order over freedoms. However, being evil he should generally not care if his actions harm other people (or his character has a way to rationalise it), and probably lacks empathy for the suffering of others.

Another cool LE type of character is someone like the Punisher or Casey Jones from TMNT or similar vigilantes that murder, torture and terrorise with a total lack of empathy for the individual in order to protect 'the greater good'. They actually think theyre good guys, or are just doing 'what needs to be done' in order to help the weak.

neobolts said:

Consider shifting some of the anti-evil elements of the paladin class to anti-chaos elements.[/B] This would include the eventual Oath choice. Make the paladin a force against demons, slaad and other planar agents of chaos. This further emphasizes the law angle, as opposed to an anti-good paladin.

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Or allow the Paladin to describe to you what he thinks is evil.

In my Paladins case 'evil' is defined (from my characters POV) as 'The LG church of Torm, the God and his worshippers'.

My Paladin views his actions in ridding Faerun of the 'false God' Torm, and all his deluded worshippers as an act of good. Via prosthetylisng, crusades, deicide, pogroms and even genocide.

Ultimately, everyone who thinks about D&D alignment has to decide where they draw the boundary line between neutral and evil on the spectrum of "apathetic to the suffering of others" and "active malevolence".

Flamestrike said:

How is 'healing an ally' compromising his alignment? Even the Nazi's had doctors and field hospitals man.

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That's probably why Riley37 said, "heals someone out of generosity and goodwill" (emphasis mine).

Just, as a point of order, [MENTION=6786839]Riley37[/MENTION] , are you the DM of this Adventure League game? Otherwise...or even so, if you are...I am curious/confused as to why you would "anticipate a discussion" about the PC's oath when the time comes. This is not your PC, right?

As a player or DM, other than basic notification if the player felt like sharing, I don't see how/why that would be something I would ever "anticipate" or have any expectation of, at all, let alone discussion about...Particularly in an open-to-anyone type AL game. What the other player is doing with their character is...not my business or place to say. That's for the respective player to decide and implement in the game world in a way that reveals it to my character/the rest of the party.

So...yeah...why do you anticipate/expect a discussion on what oath this character is going to take?

Flamestrike said:

Or allow the Paladin to describe to you what he thinks is evil.

In my Paladins case 'evil' is defined (from my characters POV) as 'The LG church of Torm, the God and his worshippers'.

My Paladin views his actions in ridding Faerun of the 'false God' Torm, and all his deluded worshippers as an act of good. Via prosthetylisng, crusades, deicide, pogroms and even genocide.

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That could work, but doesn't suit my personal tastes. I don't see good and evil as a matter of perspective within D&D. In fact, compared to the moral relativity of real life, the black-and-white morality of D&D is a fun and refreshing exercise. I'm working from the Great Wheel and the way good and evil function as properties of magic. Good and evil are quantifiable forces at work, and there are planes and beings that are inherently good or evil. In real life, most people doing evil think they are doing what's right. In my D&D games, there are literally evil creatures that wake up and say "Man, I love doing evil things."

I am fully on board with the 5E de-coupling of class abilities and alignments, and also the end of limits on what race and what alignment can be what class. Even so, I am a bit baffled. When this paladin uses Divine Sense, and detects a shrine to Bane, it feels evil; does the evil feel... familiar and comfortable?

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1) Remember, Divine Senses don't detect good or evil auras anymore. They detect celestials, fiends, and undead. A demon, a devil, a yugoloth, and various undead can each feel differently.

2) Look beyond just the alignment. That's just a shorthand for personality - you actually have several different aspects of the personality as part of the character generation process now. What is the character's personality, the flaws and bonds? Is he religious? What are his goals? I've seen some LE characters that serve Asmodeus as a kind of bounty hunter, tracking down evil and sending it on its way to the Nine Hells as a kind of sin eater. I've seen LE servants of the dark fae, serving as wardens and guards.

3) Forgotten Realms isn't Planescape. Two LE gods aren't automatically aligned because they share an alignment, nor are two gods automatically opposed because one is Lawful and the other is Chaotic. If he's a servant of Bane, or even allied Myrkul or Bhaal, the place should feel comfortable. If we're talking about serving a different, opposed god, lets say? Then no.

Riley37 said:

His loyalty to the Lady of Pain is faltering. I think the player is sorting out his own ideas. DDEX sessions aren't exactly optimized for lots of time in the RP pillar, so it may take several sessions before I get a clear idea of where he's going with this. I suspect that part of the motive is something like "to do something unusual and extreme".

I may end up with the reverse of the usual problem. There's lots of stories of "the player claims LG, but the actions are CE", and the DM imposing consequences for actions against alignment. This could be a case of the player claiming LE, and then acting CG on occasion... Every time he heals someone out of generosity and goodwill, that compromises his LE alignment, right? He could lose his membership in the Evil League of Evil!

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Nitpick - Loviatar is the Maiden of Pain. The Lady of Pain is the god-like ruler of Sigil who slays anyone who worships her. The latter really can't have devotees.

Now, more on topic. To be perfectly blunt, does all this matter? You seem very focused on the alignment chart. As long as the healing is in line with his Oath, his goals, and devotion to his goddess, its kosher. There is absolutely nothing that says evil people can't heal their allies. Indeed, I would argue that anyone who DOESN'T try to keep their allies alive is playing a two-dimensional mustash twirling villain characture.

Furthermore, healing is actually in theme for Loviatar as well. Her teachings encourage acts of kindness to accompany the acts of pain, as well as the idea that healing isn't necessarily painless - in fact, it allows you to survive injuries and suffer more pain. "Kindnesses are the best companions to hurts, and increase the intensity of suffering. Let mercy of sudden abstinence from causing pain and of providing unlooked-for healing come over you seldom, but at whim, so as to make folk hope and increase the Mystery of Loviatar's Mercy. Unswerving cruelty will turn all folk against you. Act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it as well as to those who deserve it most or would be most hurt by it."

Lets review - he's devoted to a goddess that encourages overcoming suffering to gain strength, and punishing those who are deserving of it (usually that's other evil folk). Mercy on a whim, but not an outright devotion, is encouraged.

I would almost say that your vision of how the Evil League of Evil should act is more of an issue than a devotee of Lovitar healing allies is.


Also, never impose consequences for actions against alignment. That's a very good way to cause turmoil in the group, since very few people share views on what each alignment means. Simply make a note of a changing alignment, preferably quietly, and keep playing, and only bring it up if you get a sentient artifact, or something, where it actually matters as a mechanic.