Racially diverse artwork in D&D...does it influence you?

[Imaro]

Are you trying to say that ancient Greeks and Romans weren't white too, though? I mean, where are you going with this?

There were numerous ethnicitiies that were a part of the Roman empire, served in the legions, etc. My point was that Greece and Rome were hodgepodges of ethnicities and it would not be unrealistic to have a black in roman armor or a toga and with roman weapons... You've taken my statement out of context.

Howard most certainly is. True, Conan wandered in what was the Hyborian equivalent of the Middle East and North Africa a fair amount, but the Hyborian Age map was very clearly a map of fantasy Europe, with Europe's proximate neighbors thrown in as well.

Leiber may not have been as overt, but Fafhrd was clearly a Viking-esque character too.

It's a bit much to say that pulp fantasy is non-European. A bit too much, with some vague exceptions.

I said it wasn't medieval european based, again you are twisting what I said... if anything S&S has more in common with the ancient world than medieval europe.

I'll grant that the style of storytelling was probably more heavily influenced by the Orientalism movement and Arabian Nights type stories rather than actual European histories or sagas, at least until Tolkien came along.

I appreciate what you're saying here, but lets not get carried away and make claims that are overtly wrong to support your position. Western fantasy is very heavily invested in European medievalism. D&D, as an extension of western fantasy, is as well.

I love how here you again switch to using "European Medievalism" yet above it's not what you use to argue your point. And again claiming "western fantasy" is based on european medievalism does not jibe with the tropes of sword & sorcery...no knights, no advanced armor, jousting, etc.

If anything, I think the push to make D&D illustrations more multicultural is nothing more than trying to reflect the demographics of its largest market, the US.

This statement makes no sense. Seriously I don't understand what you are saying here...

 

[Cadfan]

If you're playing a swords-and-sorcery style game, in the style of Robert E. Howard's Conan, you should have all kinds of diversity in races and cultures in the game world. You have analogs to medieval French knights, English longbowmen, American Indians, sub-Saharan Africans, Mongols of the steppes, Asian Indians, etc.

Why does everything have to be analogs?

 

[hamishspence]

probably cos thats what many authors do.

Warhammer is one of the worst for making analogs: hard to find a race that isn't drawing heavily on mythology or geography or both.

Lizardmen: very Central American themes
Bretonnians: France/Arthurian myth
High Elves: Atlantis

Skaven are probably the furthest from anything familiar

Faerun does the same, many of the races are analogs:
Illuskans: Scandinavians
Mulan: Ancient Egypt/Sumer
Shou: "Oriental"

fantasy that avoids overdoing the parallels is to be commended.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Why does everything have to be analogs?

I don't know I just...

I dont have these issues when I run my games.

When I play in games I play characters that resemble me. I don't worry about why my PC has brown skin and the next PC doesnt. If we WANT to delve into that we just do. But apparently I've been doing it wrong.

Some of the posts especially MMadsen's last one comes across like if you're playing a fantasy RPG if you're not white you HAVE to justify your existence in the game. If the game were a simulation of Europe I'd whole heartedly agree with him. But at least to me, it's NOT. I shouldnt have to justify my PC's existance in a fantasy world if my white / asian counterparts dont have to. And to suggest the other extreme is just as strange: Black Men , Red Men? WTF? Seriously? I get the examples that he was citing but that's the extreme that I should go to so that I can play a character or want to play a character that looks like me?

 

[Desdichado]

There were numerous ethnicitiies that were a part of the Roman empire, served in the legions, etc. My point was that Greece and Rome were hodgepodges of ethnicities and it would not be unrealistic to have a black in roman armor or a toga and with roman weapons... You've taken my statement out of context.

No, I haven't. You've made a statement that, while true, doesn't really encompass reality very well. The romans were multicultural, true, but in artwork, you or I'd be hard pressed to tell a Roman citizen of a Roman, Illyrian, Anatolian, Thracian, Gaulish or British background. The romans did have some light presence in North Africa and Egypt was a province for a time, and the border between the Parthian or Persian empires and Rome shifted from time to time, but you imply a kind of anything goes approach to the roman empire that wasn't true. An actual sub-saharan black man or far eastern Asian from China or Tibet or wherever would have been extremely exotic in Rome.

I said it wasn't medieval european based, again you are twisting what I said... if anything S&S has more in common with the ancient world than medieval europe.

I am not "twisting" what you said, I'm disagreeing with what you said.

I love how here you again switch to using "European Medievalism" yet above it's not what you use to argue your point. And again claiming "western fantasy" is based on european medievalism does not jibe with the tropes of sword & sorcery...no knights, no advanced armor, jousting, etc.

This part of your post has no content. I'm switching positions? Using something else to argue my point? Perhaps you'd be kind enough to specifically point out where I've done so. Specifically.

Also, you'd be well served by not mistaking the very end of the Medieval Period with the entirety of the Medieval Period. Just because D&D doesn't resemble France in the 1400s or La Morte d'Arthur doesn't mean that it isn't medieval. The medieval period started with the fall of Rome. Most of the medieval period also didn't have knights, advanced armor, jousting, etc.

This statement makes no sense. Seriously I don't understand what you are saying here...

I don't know why not. There's nothing nonsensical about it, and I don't know how to say it any more clearly.

 

[mmadsen]

Why does everything have to be analogs?

Perhaps you should read the whole post.

Everything doesn't have to be analogs, but if you're going to use analogs, you should probably be consistent; otherwise there's not much point.

If you want to eschew real-world races and cultures entirely, that's perfectly fine -- but you're also giving up the obvious thematic resonance of a land like Arthur's England, etc.

It's when you go half-way in between that things get silly -- a quasi-medieval English countryside with modern London demographics.

 

[Afrodyte]

When I play in games I play characters that resemble me. I don't worry about why my PC has brown skin and the next PC doesn't. If we WANT to delve into that we just do. But apparently I've been doing it wrong.

Some of the posts especially MMadsen's last one comes across like if you're playing a fantasy RPG if you're not white you HAVE to justify your existence in the game. If the game were a simulation of Europe I'd whole heartedly agree with him. But at least to me, it's NOT. I shouldn't have to justify my PC's existence in a fantasy world if my White/Asian counterparts don't have to. And to suggest the other extreme is just as strange: Black Men, Red Men? WTF? Seriously? I get the examples that he was citing but that's the extreme that I should go to so that I can play a character or want to play a character that looks like me?

Precisely.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Analogues can be both a good and a bad thing

Why does everything have to be analogs?

Regarding the use of analogues.

Historical and cultural analogues are useful and even somewhat necessary because most fantasy settings are earth-like and we as earthlings relate easily to those things with historical precedent. These things are part of our shared consciousness and therefore carry a certain resonance of "reality" with them.

One can create a setting that has no or very, very few analogues such as Tekumel, Jorune (sp?) or Dark Sun but then you have cultures and peoples that can be too alien for most gamers to grasp. Dark Sun, though limited in its analogues certainly had analogues of meso-america, ancient greece, africa, etc. in various city states. Draj had elements of Greece, Nibenay those of Africa, Gulg possessed elements of Aztec culture. This isn't a slam against the setting, I loved it. I am just pointing out the analogues.

If one wants to create a setting without analogues then one is going to have to create new types of social structures, weapons, armors, customs, etc. in other words, like Tekumel, a totally reimagined world of humans. A lack of analogues isn't an excuse for laziness. "I don't have analogues so I'l just slap peoples and customes together randomly" which is what I fear would happen to most settings if analogues weren't used. This isn't because their creators aren't creative, its because most aren't historians or anthropologists with the knowledge needed to create cultures that do not draw upon earth's rich history and cultural landscape.

Well done analogues can bring a setting to life, badly done analogues seem cheap and artificial. Its all in how its done.



Wyrmshadows

 

[Imaro]

Regarding the use of analogues.

Historical and cultural analogues are useful and even somewhat necessary because most fantasy settings are earth-like and we as earthlings relate easily to those things with historical precedent. These things are part of our shared consciousness and therefore carry a certain resonance of "reality" with them.

One can create a setting that has no or very, very few analogues such as Tekumel, Jorune (sp?) or Dark Sun but then you have cultures and peoples that can be too alien for most gamers to grasp. Dark Sun, though limited in its analogues certainly had analogues of meso-america, ancient greece, africa, etc. in various city states. Draj had elements of Greece, Nibenay those of Africa, Gulg possessed elements of Aztec culture. This isn't a slam against the setting, I loved it. I am just pointing out the analogues.

If one wants to create a setting without analogues then one is going to have to create new types of social structures, weapons, armors, customs, etc. in other words, like Tekumel, a totally reimagined world of humans. A lack of analogues isn't an excuse for laziness. "I don't have analogues so I'l just slap peoples and customes together randomly" which is what I fear would happen to most settings if analogues weren't used. This isn't because their creators aren't creative, its because most aren't historians or anthropologists with the knowledge needed to create cultures that do not draw upon earth's rich history and cultural landscape.

Well done analogues can bring a setting to life, badly done analogues seem cheap and artificial. Its all in how its done.



Wyrmshadows

And yet Dark Sun, even with these analogs felt no need to define skin color by them. Another thing about "historic analogs" is they can be used as justification for exclusion or minimization. Analogs are just that, analogs... not historical recreations. Exalted has analogs and easily incorporates differing ethnicities, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, etc. all have reasons for diversity within their settings.

What's hillarious to me is people keep pulling out a need for justification... well it's there in the campaign settings and in the description of the races in the corebooks, so why is a pseudo real world analogy necessary for it to appear in the artwork? I haven't seen anyone address this issue who keeps talking of justification and it'll shatter the simulation of psedo-europe that D&D strives so hard to emulate .

 

[Cadfan]

I just disagree with reasoning that appears to go:

1. D&D has a default imaginary world which includes farming villages with roughly medieval European levels of technology, feudal system governance, and mostly medieval European weapons.
2. Therefore, black people don't fit because they weren't in real medieval Europe.

Its not real medieval Europe. Its a magical fantasy land. If you can't imagine a magical fantasy land in which black people live in European style medieval villages, that's your problem.

http://wen-m.deviantart.com/art/Anima-no-9-54164471

If that piece of art breaks your ability to believe in or enjoy a setting, or if you look at it and demand to know how a native American-looking dude ended up wearing those clothes or holding that weapon, seriously, you have problems.