Stealth - the low down UPDATED!

[Machus]

I still think the FAQ is open to interpretation, and doesn't necessarily instruct you to use all the rules on page 281 when a target is hidden.

I agree, but your argument is more solid than this.
Even if one does use all the rules, it does not mean at the exclusion of the other existing and more obvious rules regarding stealth, perception, cover, and concealment. So you're right in either case.

A Stealth check that is opposed successfully by a higher Perception check (whether passive or active) is a failed Stealth check, so the moment someone's active Perception check beats their opponent's Stealth check, he ceases to be Hidden from them.

Yes, or any of the numerous other ways to break stealth (moving, light, etc.)

If they fail to beat his Stealth check via any of the Perception checks they've employed, yet still want to attack him, then you refer to page 281 - specifically, the last two sections, detailing that you can either pick a square to make a ranged attack against, taking a -5 penalty to the roll even if you choose correctly, or else make a Close or Area attack encompassing the area you believe he is in, in which case you take no penalty to your attack roll if he is present.

I agree, but both of these rules are also already in the standard text and so if anything it's simply a refresher.
Someone you can't see already has total concealment and you have a -5 to hit, that's from the concealment rules. Cover and concealment rules also spell out the vulnerabilities to area/close attacks.

So the side bar is more of a helpful organization of the relevant rules for the specific case of total concealment from sources not dependant on stealth, coupled with stealth. The last two happen to be the same for both stealth and the side-bar specific case.

 

[Stormtower]

Man, this thread is frustrating and confusing. Kudos to those of you who are really wrestling with the issue. I agree that the FAQ update is unhelpful.

WotC, if you're reading this we could really use some well-written examples of play for the stealth rules.

 

[Mirdur]

Well, I must say that I am impressed with the clarifications that WotC provided regarding stealth. I was under the impression that they wanted to end with skills that were better than feats (tumble comes to my mind) and then they come with the stealth and intimidate (but that’s another problem).

As someone have pointed out earlier I can’t see why any class wouldn’t use stealth every round. It has absolutely no cost (part of any action, that could even be a minor imo, but some people think that it is too much) and, even if you fail, there isn’t any consequences. In the other hand, if you succeed in the stealth check you get combat advantage (that alone would be plenty) and get the benefits of not being seen (enemies don’t know what square you are). A player of agive him any reason why not.

Another aspect that is interesting is how easy a rogue can hide (+5 from dex + 5 from trained) with fleeting ghost. Also each level it gets easier, since his dex will improve and the wis from the enemies will not.

A pity that 4th edition couldn’t end with overpowered skills and that the stealth combo is stronger than most (if not all) utility powers.

 

[bardolph]

OK. Given that WotC seems to be asleep at the wheel when it comes to Stealth clarification, some house rules are in order. Here's mine:

• If you attack, you cannot roll Stealth in the same turn after attacking. Same goes for shouting.
• You can, however, roll Stealth on an action before an attack, in order to gain Combat Advantage.
• You cannot roll Stealth while adjacent to an enemy that is aware of you.
• You cannot ready a "stealthy" action.
• Active Perception checks are minor actions, and need to beat or tie the original stealth check result. Once spotted, the spotter can communicate the hider's square to anyone who is capable of understanding.

NOTE: The "-10 rule" from "Targeting What You Can't See" doesn't make sense at all in this context, and I wouldn't use it. The problem with it is that, if the Stealth roll beat the observer's Passive Perception by as little as one point, even a natural 20 would result in failure. I have to assume that the "-10 rule" would only apply to truly invisible creatures, and not to those that are merely hidden.

 

[clearstream]

You cannot ready a "stealthy" action.

Active Perception checks are minor actions, and need to beat or tie the original stealth check result. Once spotted, the spotter can communicate the hider's square to anyone who is capable of understanding.

NOTE: The "-10 rule" from "Targeting What You Can't See" doesn't make sense at all in this context, and I wouldn't use it. The problem with it is that, if the Stealth roll beat the observer's Passive Perception by as little as one point, even a natural 20 would result in failure. I have to assume that the "-10 rule" would only apply to truly invisible creatures, and not to those that are merely hidden.

Readying a 'stealthy' action... tasty

My feeling is that rules and 'clarifications' notwithstanding, someone who has spotted you should reveal the exact square. That is cleaner and simpler. I dropped that because if the TWYCS rules are in play you have a partially spotted state that doesn't know the exact square.

I agree with those who feel the +10 is silly in this context. Kitsune's argument seems strongest: a standard action active Perception isn't hit by the -10 effective. That only applies to further passive checks and any minor action active checks.

-vk

 

[Klaus]

Here's how I'm seeing it:

- In order to use Stealth, you need one of these three things: cover, concealment or a diversion (achieved through a Bluff check).
- If you beat the observer's Perecption, you are hidden from him until the end of your next turn.
-The observer may attempt to pinpoint your location by taking a standard action on his turn to roll Perception vs. Stealth. If you used cover or concealment to roll your Stealth check, your observer pinpoints your location if he beats your new Stealth check by 10 points or more (but you still benefit of cover or concealment). If you used a diversion, you are pinpointed if your opponent matches or beats your Stealth roll.
- If you attack the observer, you are no longer hidden. You may take a new action to hide again, but you take a -5 penalty to your Stealth check, and you still need cover, concealment or a diversion.
- At the end of your turn, check if you still have cover or concealment. If you do, you may remain hidden (provided you weren't found out by the observer and didn't attack) by making a new Stealth check. You must spend at least a minor action every round to sustain your hiding.

How does that sound?

 

[clearstream]

Here's how I'm seeing it:

- In order to use Stealth, you need one of these three things: cover, concealment or a diversion (achieved through a Bluff check).
- If you beat the observer's Perecption, you are hidden from him until the end of your next turn.
-The observer may attempt to pinpoint your location by taking a standard action on his turn to roll Perception vs. Stealth. If you used cover or concealment to roll your Stealth check, your observer pinpoints your location if he beats your new Stealth check by 10 points or more (but you still benefit of cover or concealment). If you used a diversion, you are pinpointed if your opponent matches or beats your Stealth roll.
- If you attack the observer, you are no longer hidden. You may take a new action to hide again, but you take a -5 penalty to your Stealth check, and you still need cover, concealment or a diversion.
- At the end of your turn, check if you still have cover or concealment. If you do, you may remain hidden (provided you weren't found out by the observer and didn't attack) by making a new Stealth check. You must spend at least a minor action every round to sustain your hiding.

How does that sound?

Sounds mostly good. I've incorporated the standard action check and the diversion note into the low-down.

-vk

 

[bardolph]

-The observer may attempt to pinpoint your location by taking a standard action on his turn to roll Perception vs. Stealth. If you used cover or concealment to roll your Stealth check, your observer pinpoints your location if he beats your new Stealth check by 10 points or more (but you still benefit of cover or concealment). If you used a diversion, you are pinpointed if your opponent matches or beats your Stealth roll.

While this might work on paper, it won't work in play. Beating the stealth roll by 10 points would be so rare that you might as well not roll at all.

You must spend at least a minor action every round to sustain your hiding.

If the creature forfeits all actions, they shouldn't be forced to re-roll their stealth. That way, if you roll high, you can choose to do nothing and keep your good result.

 

[clearstream]

While this might work on paper, it won't work in play. Beating the stealth roll by 10 points would be so rare that you might as well not roll at all.

Referring to the standard action check: the notion is that it doesn't suffer the 10 point problem.

If the creature forfeits all actions, they shouldn't be forced to re-roll their stealth. That way, if you roll high, you can choose to do nothing and keep your good result.

Agreed, although RAW could be read to demand a check at the end of each of the hider's turns.

-vk

 

[MarkB]

Referring to the standard action check: the notion is that it doesn't suffer the 10 point problem.

I feel that it's an awkward and unpalatable distinction, which will still overly favour Stealth in play.

Agreed, although RAW could be read to demand a check at the end of each of the hider's turns.

I think it's entirely reasonable to require a new check each round, unless the situation remains entirely static. As enemies move around to new vantage points, a hiding place which seemed perfectly viable when first used may become significantly less so as the tactical situation changes. This will require the hidden character to adjust his posture or position, which in turn requires a further Stealth check.

Rather than getting bogged down in exactly what would prompt someone to re-hide, it's simplest to require it once per round in the course of a combat encounter.