D&D 4E HELP NEEDED: Fan created 4e conversion project for ghostwalk

[Najo]

Sounds like a good project. Though without the actual ghostwalk book I probably only have a bit to contribute. I liked the setting a great deal, though.

I don't think you have to have the ethereal plane. The feywild and shadowfell are both close enough to reality that they could serve as an ethereal plane without too many problems. I think there's something rather cool in the idea that the locations 'below' the main city aren't so much seperate domains as simply very specific places within the Shadowfell. Getting bodies and ghosts to that location thus carries with it a fair amount of real risk.

That said: I doubt it really hurts anything to wedge the ethereal plane in there.

I was rereading ghostwalk last night after I posted my last reply. So ghosts work this way:

1) 10 minutes after you die, you reapper in the ethereal plane with your appearance based on how you died and what you were wearing.
2) You then can choose to stay in the ethereal or become incorpreal.
3) If you stay ethereal, the calling pulls on you. If you become incorpreal you become a ghost that haunts the world.
4) You can only become fully manifested through certain ghost powers, magic items and then in and round the city of manifest.

So, if we remove the ethreal plane from the mix and use a more 4e feeling:
1) After the encounter you die in (or 5 minutes after you die) you reapper in the shadowfel coexisting near where you died.
2) While in the shadowfel, you can feel the pull of the calling. My thought is you continue to make "death" saving throws (perhaps less frequently - once per encounter, once per day?) once you fail 3 of them you move on and leave the shadowfel behind. This creates a sort of tension to characters trying to use the character's being in the shadowfel to further the aventure.
3) Instead of staying the the shadowfel you can choose to return to the material world. Doing so makes you into a insubstantial ghost with phasing and can only use ghost-touch items.
4) Then, incorpreal ghosts can manifest through the use of powers, rituals, magic items and in manifest zones.

While you are a ghost you can gain ghost powers and feats, but these powers and feats tie you more and more to your calling and will eventually drag you back into the true afterlife.

When you go through a life ephiphany (when raised from the dead) you can retrain any ghost powers or feats for standard ones. When you die, you can retrain one (or more) of your standard feats/ powers into ghost ones. Ghost powers and feats only partially work while you are living, the main ghost effect shutsdown until you die.

Anyrate, just some thought on tackling this. How would you handle these ideas in a single ghost template that quick and easy to apply to a character or monster?

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

I've been thinking about this as well, and here's what I have so far.

Issue #1: multiclassing rules worked for 3.x ghostwalk, doesn't work for 4.0.

Multiclassing still exists...sort of. A suggestion for a "ghost multiclass," off the top of my head (note: "ghost powers" are any powers with the Ghost keyword, and are associated with ghost classes explained farther down):

Heroism Made Manifest
You're a hero; you have villains to vanquish and worlds to save. You can't just wait around for someone to resurrect you!
Benefit: When you die and become a ghost, this feat allows you to progress in ghost classes or paths and take feats with the [Ghost] descriptor.

Animus
There's a sizable body of lore surrounding ghosts, and you've been a ghost long enough to have collected the lore (though the "body" part is debatable).
Prerequisites: 2nd level, must have died and become a ghost at least once
Benefit: For each at-will power and class feature power you have, choose a ghost at-will power or feature power of the same level. While you are a ghost, you may use any or all of these ghost powers in place of the powers you gain from your normal class; you select which powers to keep using and which to replace with ghost powers when you die, and may not change the powers chosen until and unless you are raised and die again.

Haunt
Adjusting to your time as a ghost, you display remarkable self-possession--as well as possession of practically anything else within reach.
Prerequisites: 3rd level, must have died and become a ghost at least once
Benefit: For each encounter and utility power you have, choose a ghost encounter or utility power of the same level. While you are a ghost, you may use any or all of these ghost powers in place of the powers you gain from your normal class; you select which powers to keep using and which to replace with ghost powers when you die, and may not change the powers chosen until and unless you are raised and die again.

Revenant
You've moved beyond the simple barrier between life and death...and unlife and undeath...and un-un-undeath, for that matter.
Prerequisites: 4th level, must have died and become a ghost at least twice
Benefit: For each daily and racial power you have, choose a ghost daily power or racial power of the same level. While you are a ghost, you may use any or all of these ghost powers in place of the powers you gain from your normal class; you select which powers to keep using and which to replace with ghost powers when you die, and may not change the powers chosen until and unless you are raised and die again.

Issue #2: can't compare ghost levels with class levels as characters do not level that way anymore.

The Calling
Some ghosts continue to advance in power as ghosts in the same way they did in life. The further they advance, the harder it is to hold onto their tenuous grasp of life, and when their experiences and animating force tilt too far towards the side of ghostly undeath rather than life, they feel a Calling to pass through the Veil into True Death.

Any ghost without one or more of the Spirit, Animus, or Revenant feats does not have a very firm grasp on their ghostly self; after 1d10 years as a ghost, they feel the Calling and pass on. Characters with one or more of those feats have made a conscious effort to explore their nature as a ghost and exercise control over themselves. Characters with one of the above feats whose power repertoire consists of more than 6 ghost powers feel the Calling; characters with two of those feats may have up to 12 ghost powers before they feel the Calling; characters with all three of those feats may have up to 18 ghost powers before feeling the Calling. A character's power repertoire includes all of the powers they know (that is, one for each power from their regular class(es)), not the number they choose to replace while they are a ghost.

Issue #3: making ghost equivlent powers for all of the classes is messy. Seems like ghosts should just level as their class still. This removes the need for a casting and non-casting ghost class. But, this means the whole feel of leveling as a ghost and managing your ghost class along with your living class is not there.

Make an Eidolon class and an Eidoloncer class, plus two other classes with the same naming scheme, to correspond to the Striker, Controller, Leader, and Defender roles. Each has its own set of class powers, all of which are ghost powers (powers having the Ghost keyword). Then characters would use the 3 ghost multiclass feats from above to double up their powers for ghost powers of the same role (or roles, if they're multiclass characters).

Issue #4: Do ghost feats work while your living in the 3.x ghostwalk? If so, it is kinda strange that a character dies, gains some cool powers as a ghost, then comes back to the living and still has those same powers. But, those choices shouldn't be useless either.

They don't work while you're alive, but I agree we shouldn't make them useless while you're alive. I'd say we make 6 groups of feats, one for each path/ability score, and base their effects on those ability scores while living and those paths while "ghosted." Let's say we associate the Path of the Haunt with Charisma; there might be a feat that lets you give your enemies a penalty on saves against Fear powers equal to your Cha modifier while you're alive, and lets you turn all of your powers into Fear powers while ghosted. That way, you get a benefit either way, though different benefits for different times, and someone focusing on Fear powers in general would always gain a benefit from the feat.

So, we need to decided on the design interests for ghost characters and how they should feel and play. Here are my initial thoughts, please add yours.
* Dying and playing on as a ghost should be exciting and feel a bit dangerous.

No idea; I'll get back to you on that.

* It should have elements that makes it feel like it plays different from your character when they are alive. The ghost should gain and loss certain advantages so players have to make a choice to stay living or dead.

I'd say make ghost have better defenses and movement (they're insubstantial and they can phase, after all) but have certain circumstances where they're easier to hurt and/or there's a chance they could be sent to the True Afterlife accidentally. I'll need to, ahem, flesh that out a bit more.

* moving back and forth between the ghost and living shoul not be easy, but common enough that it plays a roll in the game and explains the 1/4th of city of manifest is ghosts.

Perhaps there's a restore ghost ritual that turns a ghost into a living being that's cheap and fairly low level, explaining how ghosts could feel comfortable as they are because they know their life is a simple ritual away, and then there's a bind to Manifest ritual that will cause anyone under its effects to turn into a ghost when they die for a certain period of time. I'll need to flesh that one out too.

* applying the ghost template and turning on its powers and shutting down or weakening some of the living powers should be easy to apply game mechanics during play.

Like I explained above, you'd basically have a set of ghost powers and a set of regular powers, and every time you died and became a ghost you'd decide which slots you wanted to fill with ghost powers and which you wanted to keep regular powers. It's like a broader-reaching version of Channel Divinity (X powers per slot, only 1 slot per round/encounter/day) so shouldn't be to hard to use.

Instead of taking 10 minutes, I think ghosts characters should transition after the encounter they die in ends or 5 minutes if no encounter occuring. This is consistent with 4e design.

Or maybe they turn to ghosts immediately and can see things on the Prime, but they need to take a short rest to get their powers and be able to manifest.

Ghosts should have the ability to move into the ethereal, gain phasing and insubstantial to a limited degree. When they do this, perhaps they lose the ability to use physical equipment unless it is ghost-touch and the longer they spend in this state, the more vulnerable they are to the calling. While ethereal, they lose some of their class powers too? There has got to be a way to do this without losing the game balance. Did ghosts in ghostwalk go ethereal? This shift between the two states should be hard for the ghost to do or on the ghost. Maybe it eats up healing surges or can only be used once per encounter or once per day.

I'd do this:

• Ghosts may go ethereal at will as a minor action.
• While ethereal, ghosts are insubstantial and may phase, though their speed is reduced to half while doing so.
• Every round it spends ethereal, a ghost loses 1 HP, which may only be recovered through an extended rest.
• After being on the Ethereal, it's hard to return to the Prime; to re-manifest, a ghost must spend a healing surge as a standard action.

Ghosts should feel like they retrain when they are raised from the dead. Also, maybe when they are raised they have all of their powers and healing surges expended and have to rest to regain them.

The rest is a good idea; the power retraining feel is again covered by the dual power repertoire thing.

Every time you gain a class level while you are a ghost, you could gain a calling counter or lose a healing surge (ouch) but can take ghost powers and feats in place of normal powers. Once your calling tokens are more than half your class level or your healing surges run out you pass into the true after life. When you are raised from the dead you should be able to untrain any ghost feat or power and swap it for a normal one.

A bit complex, and feels like punishment. I prefer my version above; basically, to avoid the calling, you only need to take the 3 ghost feats to be covered most of the time. Since by level 30 you can have 17 class powers plus a whole bunch of class features (like a ghost cleric who loads up on Channel Divinity powers, or a human ghost wizard with his extra at-will and 4 cantrips), there should be another "avoid the calling" feat which bumps up the max powers limit.

Ghost powers can be based on the paths, while the ghost feats can enhace those powers or basic ghost abilities.

How can ghost powers and feats be useful for a living character but even more useful for a ghost? I think the key to this is how the ghost template works.

See my path suggestion above.

How would you handle these ideas in a single ghost template that quick and easy to apply to a character or monster?

I don't think there should be a "quick and easy" character template; you'd want to keep a lot of the customization of 3e Ghostwalk, and ghosting should be a big part of a character IMO. A monster template, however, should be easy; work up 6 templates (one for each path), pick which one fits a given creature best, and voila, ghost monster.

 

[Tzeentch]

Switching normal powers with ghost powers obviates the need for special ghost classes I think (and certainly reduces complexity by a substantial margin). Maybe they can be paragon classes that let players mix ghost and normal abilities at the same time or something.

I don't see much use in giving too many rules for the Calling beyond RP notes to be honest. It seems unnecessarily complex and too much like a metagame exercise in keeping track of time and feats.

As far as ghost templates probably the simplest and easiest to implement system is that Ghostwalk ghosts do not innately have flying <speed> (hover), phasing, darkvision, and other common Monster Manual abilities unless "bought" with the power substitutions.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Switching normal powers with ghost powers obviates the need for special ghost classes I think (and certainly reduces complexity by a substantial margin). Maybe they can be paragon classes that let players mix ghost and normal abilities at the same time or something.

Well, the idea isn't that you take any levels in a ghost class, but that there are ghost classes that organize ghost powers into levels and roles for ease of substitution. You'd never multiclass into eidoloncer, for example, just take a power or three from the eidoloncer list.

I don't see much use in giving too many rules for the Calling beyond RP notes to be honest. It seems unnecessarily complex and too much like a metagame exercise in keeping track of time and feats.

The way I handled it basically guarantees that if you take all 4 "ghost multiclass" feats to have all ghost powers available (which anyone in a Ghostwalk campaign would), you would never have to deal with the Calling at all unless you have way more than the base number of class powers; as it is, you get 17 class powers + 1 racial power and the third feat lets you have up to 18 powers. A wizard or cleric/paladin might have to take an additional feat somewhere in the Epic tier, but otherwise it would effectively be an RP-only mechanic.

 

[Najo]

Your ideas capture the feel of the 3.5 ghostwalk rules, but I have a couple of concerns that could arise about them:

1. Having to take a feat to access ghost powers and feats seems counter to the campaign setting. Characters die and then while dead can choose those feats and powers. The feat feels to proactive, like the character is planning on dying.

2. The multiclass feats for ghost powers feel to cumbersome with powers, like your keeping two characters. They also eat up chatracter resources that your character can only use while dead. For example, if the character only takes 4 ghost feats or the 4 multi classing feats for ghosts, then they are actually better off as just taking the ghost feats.


The Calling
I think the calling should play a more prominent roll. Not always hanging over the characters, but from time to time, a ghost should feel its pull and have to fight to hang on in the world. The calling is a very real spiritual element in the ghostwalk setting and it makes ghosts appreciate their time in the lands of the living. It also gives the ghostwalk campaign a planar level to it. Ghosts that succumb to the calling experience true death and can be brought back through planar quests and rituals like normal D&D characters.

Eidolon
I think there might be something to the idea you have for the 4 classes based around roles. What I see is a rought framework of powers without the class features themselves. Basically, the eidolon is more of a ghost of a full class. The other option is to create paths with powers in them and player's swap out there powers with their paths when they die.

Ghost Rituals

I agree that there should be a restore ghost ritual, manifest ritual and ghost binding death ritual.

After rereading Ghostwalk, ghosts should not stay ethereal. They die, appear in the ethereal, while in the ethereal they feel the calling stronger than when in their incorpreal state. Then they cling to the living world by becoming incorpreal and move onto the material plane. While incorpreal they behave as ghosts with phasing and being insubstantial, and can only touch ghost touch items. Then, when they manifest (in and around manifest) or with rituals or magic items, they become ectoplasmic and can use physical equipment and interat with the material. The ghost character can move between manifest and incorpreal states as needed with either a standard/ move/ minor action (not sure which).

Ghost Templates

I wasn't clear what I meant here. I agree that ghost characters should be complex and fun. I just meant, when a character dies the basic ghost rules should plug on as a template and work with the monster rules. Then when the template activates, all of the ghost keyword stuff comes into play so all of your ghost feats and powers come online. For ghost monsters, you would apply the ghost template and have a simplified varient for each path.


You have alot of great ideas, I will reply with some ideas I have and we can bounce them back and forth until we hit that sweet spot.

 

[Tzeentch]

Well, the idea isn't that you take any levels in a ghost class, but that there are ghost classes that organize ghost powers into levels and roles for ease of substitution. You'd never multiclass into eidoloncer, for example, just take a power or three from the eidoloncer list.

Ah, I see. I was thinking you were doing that AND having special ghost striker/defender/controller classes.

The way I handled it basically guarantees that if you take all 4 "ghost multiclass" feats to have all ghost powers available (which anyone in a Ghostwalk campaign would), you would never have to deal with the Calling at all unless you have way more than the base number of class powers; as it is, you get 17 class powers + 1 racial power and the third feat lets you have up to 18 powers. A wizard or cleric/paladin might have to take an additional feat somewhere in the Epic tier, but otherwise it would effectively be an RP-only mechanic.

The Ghostwalker Calling was a silly mechanism to punish players for staying as ghosts for too long before getting a rez. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit (pardon the pun) of 4e, especially if (as you say) everyone will be taking those ghost multiclass feats anyways The roleplaying and setting aspects of the Calling are certainly compelling though, and a common element of "ghost RPGs" such as Wraith.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

1. Having to take a feat to access ghost powers and feats seems counter to the campaign setting. Characters die and then while dead can choose those feats and powers. The feat feels to proactive, like the character is planning on dying.

Well, if we want to do this in a multiclassing sort of way, following the multiclassing rules is a good way to do it.

If you don't want people to "plan on dying," perhaps we could make the feats simply enhance what already exists...hmm. how about the following?

• Any and all creatures that die can become ghosts (not will, but can, based on DM fiat; PCs always do).
• Once you're a ghost, you can take ghost feats, but you only get the benefits while you're a ghost--the "benefits while living" part doesn't apply to you.
• You pick a number of at-wills and class feature powers to "double up" with ghost powers equal to your highest ability modifier, and you automatically gain those while you're dead; the same goes for encounters + utilities and dailies + racials.
• If you want to keep being able to use ghost feats while alive, take the Heroism Made Manifest feat.
• If you want to be able to double up on all of your at-wills and class feature powers, and be able to choose which ones you use rather than auto-replacing them, take the Spirit feat.
• If you want to be able to double up on all of your encounters and utilities, and be able to choose which ones you use rather than auto-replacing them, take the Haunt feat.
• If you want to be able to double up on all of your dailies and racials, and be able to choose which ones you use rather than auto-replacing them, take the Revenant feat.

So anyone can be a ghost and pick a certain number of feats and powers, but you don't get to make use of feats while you're alive (or get nearly as many ghost powers) unless you multiclass to ghost. Better?

2. The multiclass feats for ghost powers feel to cumbersome with powers, like your keeping two characters. They also eat up chatracter resources that your character can only use while dead. For example, if the character only takes 4 ghost feats or the 4 multi classing feats for ghosts, then they are actually better off as just taking the ghost feats.

1) Regarding complexity: It's just like a wizard's expanded spellbook, really, where you have two powers for every slot and pick one at a time; the difference here is that (if you take the feats) you can double up on all powers but are restricted on when you can take them.

2) Regarding "only use them while you're dead": Remember, every ghost feat would have a "while alive" benefit and a "while ghosted" benefit, so you never have a dead slot (pardon the pun).

The Calling
I think the calling should play a more prominent roll. Not always hanging over the characters, but from time to time, a ghost should feel its pull and have to fight to hang on in the world. The calling is a very real spiritual element in the ghostwalk setting and it makes ghosts appreciate their time in the lands of the living. It also gives the ghostwalk campaign a planar level to it. Ghosts that succumb to the calling experience true death and can be brought back through planar quests and rituals like normal D&D characters.

Well, you could always institute rules for occasional Calling incidents, but the basic based-on-level Calling should sort of fade into the background except at level-up, just like 3e.

Eidolon
I think there might be something to the idea you have for the 4 classes based around roles. What I see is a rought framework of powers without the class features themselves. Basically, the eidolon is more of a ghost of a full class. The other option is to create paths with powers in them and player's swap out there powers with their paths when they die.

Exactly--no features, no HP/defense bonuses/surges/etc., just a big list of powers arranged by level and type with a class name attached for convenience.

Ghost Templates

I wasn't clear what I meant here. I agree that ghost characters should be complex and fun. I just meant, when a character dies the basic ghost rules should plug on as a template and work with the monster rules. Then when the template activates, all of the ghost keyword stuff comes into play so all of your ghost feats and powers come online. For ghost monsters, you would apply the ghost template and have a simplified varient for each path.

Using my modified ghost multiclassing rules above (which now that I look at them are probably much better than the previous iteration) would give you that template, and taking the feats on top would bring everything on-line.

 

[Najo]

I've been knocking some stuff around too. Let's narrow our focus on to the ghost template and then build outward from there. So, the ghost template needs to be made as easy to use as possible without losing the interesting elements of ghost characters. Here is my attempt at it, tell me what you like, what you don't and make suggestions on changes. If this inspires you to come at it another way, then post your own version for me to look at. Once we got the template hammered out, we can easily build the next part (dying, the calling and raise dead) and then the following part (ghost paths, powers, feats).

Here is what I was thinking as a starting point:

Ghost Template (applied when a humanoid character dies)

Ghost: You are considered to have the ghost key word, so you are considered to be a ghost for effects that relate to that keyword. As a ghost, you have the following traits:

• You don’t need to eat, drink or breathe. You are immune to starvation, thirst and suffocation but not any other effects.
  
• Rather than sleep, ghosts spend 4 hours refraining from any strenuous activity. You need to spend 4 hours in this state to gain the same benefits others gain from taking a 6-hour extended rest. While resting in this low-exertion state, you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal.
  
• You can select ghost powers and feats.

Deathmarks: Your ghost form is marked by how you died. The severity of the death determines how the marks affect your social interaction with the living. Other ghosts, immortals and undead are immune to the effects of your deathmarks.

• Subtle: Your death was either non-violent, poisoning or from natural causes that left little or no marks. You have no modifiers to Bluff, Diplomacy, Streetwise or Intimidate.
  
• Disturbing: Your death left obvious marks on your body but nothing to extreme. Examples include drowning, strangulation, severe weapon wounds and other quick and obvious methods of dying. You are -2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Streetwise and a +2 bonus to Intimidate.
  
• Repulsive: Your death marks are obvious and unsettling to the living. Examples include mauling, dismemberment, decapitation, burning and other extremely violent deaths. You are -4 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Streetwise and a +4 bonus to Intimidate.
  
• Gruesome: Your death marks are hideous and very frightening for the living, leaving you barely recognizable as a humanoid. You are -8 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Streetwise and a +8 bonus to Intimidate.

Ghost Form: When in this form, you become insubstantial and move with phasing. You are immune to non-magical disease and poison. You cannot use or interact with any non-living physical object unless it has the ghost touch trait or you have a power or magic item that allows you too. Your healing surges cannot be used for any healing.

Manifest Form: When manifested, your ectoplasm becomes tangible and more like your body when you were alive. Your manifested form does not have any of the advantages or disadvantages of your ghost form, so your ghost form rules do not apply. You can only take your manifest form when in certain manifest zones (such as those around and in the city of Manifest) and when under the effects of manifesting powers, magic items or rituals. When in your manifest form, you can change into your ghost form as a standard action at-will. If you become unconscious, you revert to your ghost form. Some manifest zones force a ghost to manifest; in these places you cannot take your ghost form in any circumstance.