Epic Fight turns into Epic Farce

Or, if in the fight, you just roll a whole bunch of ones...well, how is that a save or die problem? The consequences would be just as dire if you were doing anything else and rolled a one.
No. If you roll a 1 on an attack roll, you miss on that attack. You don't die instantly.

Again, that's the problem. The fact that a single bad die roll ends it for you. You can miss half a dozen attacks in a combat, and that doesn't necessarily mean you lose the fight. Roll crap on a single save, and that can be it.
 

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It happens and you move on. Maybe it's a bad encounter? Honestly, not trying to be insulting. Different classes have different saves specifically to avoid this. If you have multiple monsters all using multiple save spells for different saves, then it's not a good encounter.
Not all saves are save-or-die or save-or-suck saves. The problem is the binary nature of these specific saves. You're okay, or you're out. No in-between. At least with damage-causing spells, even if you fail the save you still have hit points to soak the damage.
 

It happens and you move on. Maybe it's a bad encounter? Honestly, not trying to be insulting. Different classes have different saves specifically to avoid this. If you have multiple monsters all using multiple save spells for different saves, then it's not a good encounter.

This is not about a good or bad encounter. This is about a ingame rule for various abilities/power that leave out much of the skill and just replace it with a big fat random chance. You could have low level clerics against a party of high level characters ( lets say level 6 clerics vs a party of level 12 players), if the players roll badly( lets say the each roll a natural '1') then yo could have a tpk easily.

Or, if in the fight, you just roll a whole bunch of ones...well, how is that a save or die problem? The consequences would be just as dire if you were doing anything else and rolled a one.

No.

If I roll a natural one on a grapple check, I just miss and can try the next round. If I roll a '1' against a fireball I just take some damage. If I just roll a '1' in my attack I just miss and can attack next round. But if I roll a natural '1' on a hold/fear/finger of death, well I am out of the game. And if by weird luck my fellow players roll a '1' too, well this is a tpk.

There is a huge difference.
 

I really want to know the demographics of all of the people who have responded that "save or sit out" effects are okay. What do you do during that time? Is sitting there listening to others play as fun as playing yourself? How often do you play? How long did you travel to play?

As for myself, I play with with people who all have professional full times jobs, most are married, and some have kids. We get one night a week to play for about four hours, maybe four and a half. Some of them travel thirty five minutes to play, so that pushes their time commitment up higher. (I host as the DM.)

I also play in a group that meets perhaps three times a year over a weekend to game. We probably play twelve hours or so.

Anymore in gaming, I dislike "save or sit out" effects because of our group. My players are looking for something fun to do, and they have chosen gaming. To have them have to sit there for more than ten minutes without being involved in the actions is bad. More than that, and it's almost rude. Some of them don't have tons of time and if it isn't fun, they have many other commitments they could do instead. As the DM, I am looking to entertain them. I don't see how sitting there and doing nothing is fun.

Maybe that's just me.

edg


I concurr completely. This game is about having fun.
 

And, really, the "rolling 1" part is secondary IMO.

Take 2 harpies. EL 6 encounter. The DC for the Harpies Captivating Song is Will 16. The best you can reasonably expect a will save to be at 6th level is about +10 (yes, yes, I know, you CAN get it higher than that, but, let's keep things reasonable shall we?). That means even the cleric is failing 25% of the time. Everyone else is failing more often.

Remember, this should be an average encounter for a 6th level party. You would not expect any fatalities, nor should the party be terribly challenged by this encounter. Yet, by the second round, pretty much everyone will likely have failed their saving throws and you have a tpk.

Or, conversely, if the casters have the get out of jail free card of Protection from Evil, then the encounter becomes incredibly easy as the cleric beats the harpies to death with a stick. (31 hp, AC 13 and d6 damage = 6th level character pwnage) Yay cleric.

It's way too binary. Either the party dies or waltzes through the encounter.
 

Crap happens - learn to deal with it. Do you think the men who faced the mythical medusa had the luxury of making 3 saves over the course of multiple rounds? Heck, I don't think they even had the benefit of a fort save!
This notion that ingame adversity for the PC has to be represented by realworld adversity for the player is one that is peculiar to a certain type of RPGing. I'm not quite sure where it comes from.

I really want to know the demographics of all of the people who have responded that "save or sit out" effects are okay. What do you do during that time? Is sitting there listening to others play as fun as playing yourself? How often do you play? How long did you travel to play?

As for myself, I play with with people who all have professional full times jobs, most are married, and some have kids. We get one night a week to play for about four hours, maybe four and a half. Some of them travel thirty five minutes to play, so that pushes their time commitment up higher.
I agree, it's a huge issue. My group's profile mostly fits yours. There's a limit to the interest my players will take in spectating. This is why, once our RM game finishes (I think about 2 sessions to go) I am seriously thinking of moving to 4e.
 


I think the circumstances in the OP situation genuinely point up the inherent troubles in forcing the word "epic" into your daily conversation. ;)
 

Or, conversely, if the casters have the get out of jail free card of Protection from Evil, then the encounter becomes incredibly easy as the cleric beats the harpies to death with a stick. (31 hp, AC 13 and d6 damage = 6th level character pwnage) Yay cleric.

I would argue that protection from evil does not work against a harpy (though that is secondary to the discussion at hand). The spell you have in mind is probably silence, since the harpy song is a sonic effect.

Won't it boil down to the same thing? Cleric casts silence (or casts it from a scroll), entire party squeezes inside, then find a way to slay the harpy, chase it away or bypass it. At the end of the day, it is still resources expended, just that the majority is spent on defensive buffs allowing you to resist the harpy's song, rather than actually defeating them (because note that the harpies can still fly, and possibly wield ranged weaponry). Even if you had cast invisibility on everyone to sneak past them, it would still be resources expended.

After all, the game just assumes you spend ~25% of your resources on a equal EL encounter, it does not come out and say how those resources must be allocated, or expended in what manner. If you face a pit fiend, for instance, 20% of your resources could be spent on buffs (eg: heroes' feast, mindblank, energy resistance, scrolls of dismissal etc), and the remainder taking the form of actual damage taken during the fight. That the battle ended up being easier compared to if you had not pre-buffed still would not change the fact that either way, party resources still were used up.

I agree completely, but none of this has to do with just rolling badly on the first round. Even your priest with his + 134 to will saves can roll a '1' on a feeblemind spell. So if your priest with +134 to will saves rolls a '1', does that make him a zero? How about the legendary figther who has slain demons and dragons everywhere, rolls a '1' to a the main villain's toady slay living spell?

Well, my response would be that rolling a natural 1 on your save is a metagame concept. In-game, your character won't know that he will fail a particular save only on a natural 1. When he does fail his will save against said spell, his reaction should be more along the lines of "darn, I let down my guard for just 1 moment, and this happens" or "I just wasn't strong enough", rather than "crap, I must have rolled a 1. Just my luck".

He wouldn't know why he failed the save, just that he did, and this would influence his future responses accordingly.:)

I would say they are fine when used in moderation. Obviously, I don't go around throwing encounters consisting of like, 4 bodaks at the party and go telling them to make 4 fort saves each round, at every turn. But the issue I have with simply hp damage is that it can get too predictable after some time. The fighter with 100+ hp knows that he can weather 2-3 fireballs with ease. There is just little/no tension left in the fight. They don't mind taking damage because they know how readily it can be healed/undone. Each fight just boils down to a battle of attrition. It gets .... I dunno the word...mechanical? after a while.

I find that once in a while, save-or-suck effects are useful for shaking things up and reminding players that they are ultimately still mortal, despite their stats. Like that ghost medusa constantly using hit and run in and out of walls to force the party to make 4 saves each round or be subjected to a myraid of penalties...Boy, that sure had the party crapping in their pants.Ah...good memories...

Granted, it helps that no one plays a fighter anymore (the warblade replaced him in our games long ago), so making saves aren't all that hard. And to your question, my answer is "Yes, we are fine with it, so long as it is used in moderation (how much will vary on the players, but my point is that it has its place, and can actually enhance your gaming experience if used appropriately. So I wouldn't write them out completely.":)
 

Personally I think it all boils down to a style thing... though I do think that those who claim save or die isn't fun actually mean... isn't fun for them. I think it really depends on what type of person you are whether you like or dislike save or die... I think of it like this.

Some people risk tons of money in poker games
Some people risk tons of money rolling dice

I wouldn't say one is objectively more fun than the other since I think different types of people enjoy the above for different reasons. But I do think it's similar to why some people hate save or die and others like the risk of it. I mean there are people who are willing to risk large amounts of money on a single roll of 2 six-sided dice... and it's fun to them... so why is it so hard to believe that some people wouldn't mind or might even have fun risking an imaginary character in that way.

The thing is 4e has decided that shooting craps is the wrong type of fun for D&D (I often wonder if this could be the bland feeling that has been expressed by some people trying the game. There's very little adrenaline rush moments in the game now.) I think a better solution would have been to have save or die as optional rules with guidelines on the effect and proper use in a game.
 

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