Are rogues marginalized by magic?

[Mort]

Are rogues in 3.5 marginalized by magic? In other words do spells infringe on the rogues role in the party? Please excuse the obvious typo i(should be marginalized) in the poll.

 

[Harlekin]

Are rogues in 3.5 marginalized by magic? In other words do spells infringe on the rogues role in the party?

A better phrasing may be that magic infringes on all skill users. Rogues are most affected by that, but Rangers are marginalized by that as well. At high levels, most skills do not contribute overcoming challenges.

 

[racoffin]

No. Rogues are as marginalized as the player allows himself to be.

 

[jdrakeh]

A better phrasing may be that magic infringes on all skill users.

This. At high levels in D&D 3.5, magic users become more efficient killers than Fighters, better infiltrators or manipulators than Rogues, etc. Magic, at high levels, trumps many (if not all) non-magical abilities/skills in the game.

 

[Hussar]

I think a better phrasing might be, "magic can marginalize" rogues. In some groups, this may not be an issue for any number of reasons - players choose not to do so, no one is playing a wizard, etc.

But, from a point of view of just looking at the rules? Yup, magic does everything better. There's a reason we have Skill Stunts and Bo9S and it's not because fighters and rogues were kicking ass and taking names at high levels.

 

[DM-Rocco]

No. Rogues are as marginalized as the player allows himself to be.

I disagree.

There is a magic spell that will do anything a rogue can do and it can do it better. How useful is a rogue when you can cast a find traps spell? How can a rogue compare his hide skill with invisibility? How can a rogue out sneak a silence spell. Magic can do anything a rogue can do but better so yes, it does marginalize the role of the rogue. You would have to be an epic level rogue to get the same ability as a wizard with a lot less power.

Rogues do have the ability to repeat the process over and over where a spellcaster cannot, so in that respect they are not totally marginalized. Overall though, I would have to say they are.

Of course, in a magic light world they aren't, but I don't think that is what is implied by the OP. I also don't think they are referring to sneak/deft attacks either?

 

[Mallus]

No. Rogues are as marginalized as the player allows himself to be.

Because the rogue's player can always leave the campaign?

Oh, and put me down for 'spellcasters more-or-less marginalize non-spellcasters'.

 

[Cadfan]

Its not really magic users, its magic gear.

Slippers of Spider Climbing really embody the problem. They grant a climb speed. Once that happens, it doesn't matter what your climb skill looks like, or what your armor penalty looks like. They completely negate that entire aspect of your character.

So you get in a weird situation. If you give them to the guy who likes to climb, they're redundant with his climb skill ranks. If you give them to someone who's terrible at climbing, he's significantly better than the guy who invested valuable skill ranks in climbing.

Spells can make a rogue's abilities obsolete, but at least they run out, or require the spellcaster to fill up spell slots with Knock instead of an attack spell. Its gear that creates the problem- a 50 charge Wand of Knock can last most parties a very, very long time, and isn't all that expensive. And Slippers of Spider Climb grant 10 minutes of climbing every day.

And that's not even getting into the ways that advanced magical tricks like flight and teleportation rain on the parade of classes based on mundane maneuverability.

 

[Psion]

Magic can do anything a rogue can do but better so yes, it does marginalize the role of the rogue.

It can do it better... fewer times per day and with more explicit limitations and countermeasures, at the expense of other opportunities.

So no. Put me in the strongly disagree column.

 

[frankthedm]

Very much so. Gets so bad the rogue is better off marginalizing his OWN skills with magic!

Why bother attacking AC? UMD a wand of a [range] touch attack spell!

Undead? Break out the sorta cheap Staff of fire and Use the No save, double damage to undead Wall of Fire.

Mid level? Buddy up to the wizard for Blink or Improved Invisibility!

High level? Buddy up to the Druid for some 12d6 to 20D6 + Sneak fire seeds!