4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[beej]

Hey hey U_K!

So I recently got the Adventurer's Vault, which is filled with a lot of good stuff. The new weapons are awesome; the new masterwork armors are kind of "meh".

A lot of magic items, of course, and while a bunch are already being declared "broken" in other message boards, I think I will give the items the benefit of the doubt first.

The one thing that really cayght my attention, though, was the Orb of Ultimate Imposition. It's daily item power allows the wielder to add the orb's enhancement bonus to the Orb of Imposition's penalty.

All in all, I hope that the limit on Daily Item powers will prevent this item's abuse. Still, I see this item as really problematic come post epic.

Perhaps we should consider imposing a maximum value to the orb? Or maybe add in a specific divine bonus to saves against it?

 

[Frobojoe]

Hey hey U_K!

So I recently got the Adventurer's Vault, which is filled with a lot of good stuff. The new weapons are awesome; the new masterwork armors are kind of "meh".

A lot of magic items, of course, and while a bunch are already being declared "broken" in other message boards, I think I will give the items the benefit of the doubt first.

The one thing that really cayght my attention, though, was the Orb of Ultimate Imposition. It's daily item power allows the wielder to add the orb's enhancement bonus to the Orb of Imposition's penalty.

All in all, I hope that the limit on Daily Item powers will prevent this item's abuse. Still, I see this item as really problematic come post epic.

Perhaps we should consider imposing a maximum value to the orb? Or maybe add in a specific divine bonus to saves against it?

The easiest thing to do is just change the orb so the penalty is only on one saving throw. That beings it in line with the other implement powers and pretty much fixes all the problems with it as well.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Well, there is still the problem with stunning, dazing and elite/solo foes. Even if one wizard cannot lock down a solo or elite foe, a bunch of characters spamming stun attacks one round after anouther still can.
A simpler fix would be Elites = Stun -> Daze, and Solos = Stun/Daze -> Combat Advantage. (Or whatever).
Honestly this isn't a real issue unless it becomes a player or group strategy. Easiest to just talk with the player or throw together a houserule.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey hey U_K!

Howdy beej mate!

Sorry for taking a day or two to get back to you, working last night and had a dose of mild food poisoning the night before.

So I recently got the Adventurer's Vault, which is filled with a lot of good stuff. The new weapons are awesome; the new masterwork armors are kind of "meh".

I will probably get that book. I do think 4E has a small problem in that the new armour materials/types seem nothing more than a few extra points of AC - does that change in this book?

A lot of magic items, of course, and while a bunch are already being declared "broken" in other message boards, I think I will give the items the benefit of the doubt first.

Inevitable I suppose.

The one thing that really cayght my attention, though, was the Orb of Ultimate Imposition. It's daily item power allows the wielder to add the orb's enhancement bonus to the Orb of Imposition's penalty.

All in all, I hope that the limit on Daily Item powers will prevent this item's abuse. Still, I see this item as really problematic come post epic.

Perhaps we should consider imposing a maximum value to the orb? Or maybe add in a specific divine bonus to saves against it?

I like Ltheb's suggestion. Not sure if adding new powers/items to counter broken items/powers is as good as fixing the broken power/item to begin with.

 

[beej]

Howdy beej mate!

Sorry for taking a day or two to get back to you, working last night and had a dose of mild food poisoning the night before.

No worries. I'm busy with my own stuff, too.

I will probably get that book. I do think 4E has a small problem in that the new armour materials/types seem nothing more than a few extra points of AC - does that change in this book?

The new MW armor types basically get rid of some of the extra bonuses of their PHB counterparts in favor of some bonus. Mostly they added it to a non-AC defense as an armor bonus, but the Plate variants instead give resist damage to all.

All in all, it's a good concept. I just feel like more could have been done with it.

I like Ltheb's suggestion. Not sure if adding new powers/items to counter broken items/powers is as good as fixing the broken power/item to begin with.

Yeah, I may have to go with Ltheb's suggestion, too.

 

[beej]

Hey Krusty! Been a while.

So I recently got the Draconomicon, and as rumored, it does indeed show us our first deity (Tiamat). The blurb mentions discorporation, and I was wondering if that will influence your work in any way?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Krusty! Been a while.

Howdy beej mate!

So I recently got the Draconomicon, and as rumored, it does indeed show us our first deity (Tiamat). The blurb mentions discorporation, and I was wondering if that will influence your work in any way?

I haven't been able to get a look at the new Draconomicon yet, my local store seems to be getting only the D&D books I don't want and not the ones I want.

I'll probably have to take it to ebay again.

As such I am not yet privy to Tiamat's stats(?) nor her discorporation, so I am very interested in any info you have on the matter?

Just did a little snooping: Level 35 seems decent enough. Though I need to get a better read of the whole discorporation thing. I get the gist of it, but sometimes the devil is in the details. Having Tiamat merely Huge seems somewhat baffling. Having the potential methods of godslaying built into the write-up seems a good idea - a bit like a specific version of what my portfolios infer mixed with the adventure ideas.

I did read that her statblock is monstrously big, though in part I assume that is due to her five headed nature?

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Tiamat's stats were, IMO, pretty interesting. One of the things they flat-out say is that deities break the rules (hence her 5 headed nature). I haven't seen any playtest logs or anything to confirm if her stats are accurate, but she looks really tough. (If only because against a slow party, she could get several turns in a row in the first round of combat)

Tiamat's discorporation is somewhat like the 4E Tarrasques' Get-out-of-death-free-card. Unless you fullfil the plot-device requirement for the game, you can't get her past bloodied. (She escapes. Period.)

If ever a solo-writeup comes about for the abominations, I hope that a discorporation-like ability is added in; It adds flavor and, while it is really a non-ability (since unless the PC party is bumbling around the multiverse, it's likely they will research and complete the extra task BEFORE confronting the monster), it assuredly takes the monster off random encounter tables (or puts the fear of god(s?) into the PCs) and makes the monster more interesting than HP/Defenses/Attacks.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Ltheb mate!

Tiamat's stats were, IMO, pretty interesting. One of the things they flat-out say is that deities break the rules (hence her 5 headed nature). I haven't seen any playtest logs or anything to confirm if her stats are accurate, but she looks really tough. (If only because against a slow party, she could get several turns in a row in the first round of combat)

How exactly does having 5 heads break the rules? Does she get quintuple actions each round? Or simply one action for each head, plus things like tail strike, claws and wing buffet?

Is she dealing full Level 35 solo monster damage with each head? Unlike the Hydra which has the total damage split amongst the heads. Or is she (as I suspect) doing damage equal to ancient dragons of each particular colour?

Tiamat's discorporation is somewhat like the 4E Tarrasques' Get-out-of-death-free-card. Unless you fullfil the plot-device requirement for the game, you can't get her past bloodied. (She escapes. Period.)

Sounds feasible I suppose, at least when taking into account Epic tier characters against Legendary* tier characters.

*I am changing the 31-40 tier (formerly the Exalted Tier) to be called the Legendary Tier.

However, that may not necessarily work for Legendary tier vs. Legendary tier battles. Though I suppose it would work in cases where there is a tier of difference.

Epic - Legendary
Legendary - Immortal
Immortal - Sidereal
Sidereal - Eternal

If ever a solo-writeup comes about for the abominations, I hope that a discorporation-like ability is added in; It adds flavor and, while it is really a non-ability (since unless the PC party is bumbling around the multiverse, it's likely they will research and complete the extra task BEFORE confronting the monster), it assuredly takes the monster off random encounter tables (or puts the fear of god(s?) into the PCs) and makes the monster more interesting than HP/Defenses/Attacks.

As noted above, you could see a case for it to be added to virtually all Level 31+ monsters, but that it only comes into play when there is a tier of difference.

 

[Fieari]

Tiamat gets a standard + minor action per head, and each head gets a separate initiative, prerolled by the statblock even! Each head also gets a separate action point. I'm not sure how movement is handled. I guess any head can forgo its standard for a move action. There's also an additional ability that when all heads have acted, she can use a combined attack.

It definitely looks to me like each head does full damage.

It also gives a standard template for all deities. They always get a saving throw against effects and ongoing damage, even if the ability says otherwise. They auto-know supernal. They auto-escape at bloodied (so that's not just a tiamat thing as was implied by Ltheb). They can't be effected by anyone level 19 or lower.

I'm not sure I like that last one as written... on the other hand, I think it goes well with the earlier idea of making all immortals immune to ABILITIES below a certain tier (in order to counteract abilities that don't scale well). But if a level 1 peon grabs an epic sword of awesomeness, I think that should count for something.



EDIT: Ooh! I just noticed an awesome thing about Tiamat! Each head is dazed/stunned SEPARATELY. And combined with her +5 saving throws, keeping her from doing what she wants will be nigh-impossible.