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Classless/Point Buy d20?

Buy the Numbers (pdf?) is pointbuy for 3e... but we broke it so badly that the DM opted to run us as Gestalt to simplify (and weaken) things.

Heh. Any point system can be abused. The big lie people tell themselves is that "point-based" means "balanced". I've never seen a point-based system yet that can't be abused, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone seriously argue that 2 characters of the same point value in any point-based system will also be equally effective.

The big thing I've noticed in point-based things is that people tend to do their best to make sure they squeeze every possible bit of "value" from each point they get to build their character.

Mutants & Masterminds can run any genre and is d20ish.

1st Ed is closer to "d20" in the standard sense than 2nd Ed. One of the big criticisms that I've seen people had of M&M 1E is that it was "too much like D&D" and one of the many praises 2E seems to get is that it's different from "standard" d20/D&D.

After that... yeah, M&M could be used to run many genres. 2nd Ed is definitely pushing into other genres, and there was Monsters and Mayhem done for running a fantasy game using 1st Ed.

I dunno though. For whatever reasons, when I think "classless" or "point based d20" M&M isn't the first thing that springs to mind. It's possible yes, I just reach for something else. Probably part of it is that all anyone seems to be interested in is 2nd Ed M&M, which as I've said seems to be all about _not_ looking like d20/D&D.
 

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Heh. Any point system can be abused. The big lie people tell themselves is that "point-based" means "balanced". I've never seen a point-based system yet that can't be abused, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone seriously argue that 2 characters of the same point value in any point-based system will also be equally effective.

Well put, and I'm glad you posted this. Because I wanted to say the same thing and each time I tried it sounded snarky so I figured it was better to just not post. Because this is exactly what I wanted to say!

It should be said ... breaking systems is also just as much a function of the principles of the gaming group than it is the system. I've seen D&D become broken in every edition. I can break True20 in a heartbeat. Part of the premise of choosing a system is looking at the group playing it and finding a system that will be fun for the players.

FWIW, I've played in games where powergaming was the premise - and Point Buy (specificallly Complete Control from DSP) made it a blast! I was the DM and I could challenge my powergaming-made PCs like I could in no classed game. Of course, I also made sure it was a game that used few monsters and used mostly NPCs built under the same guidelines as the characters. At the same time, I've also played in groups where powergaming was frowned on and instead they wanted well-rounded character development. Complete Control (and in general most Point Buy systems) let you do this, too.

That's actually why I like Point Buy systems. They are very flexible. If powergaming is the desired mode for character development, the DM can powergame just as much as the players and challenge them! It allows powergaming to be a legitimate form of enjoyment for all involved! But it bends very nicely to a character development model as well. What is most important is that the premise for the group getting together and everone sticking to that premise.

A single powergamer can ruin a table full of people who don't enjoy that style regardless of what system is being used. In the same light, a single non-powergamer can ruin a table full of people who want to powergame. The style of the group has just as much to say about breaking a system as the actual system.

For the record, I enjoy powergaming as well as well-rounded character development style games. And I find nothing wrong with both styles. I just think it is important that a group determine what their purpose is before playing.
 

A 17-page preview of Complete Control can be found here: Complete Control - Example Builds Preview where we offer you a chance to see exactly HOW well Complete Control allows you to create the concepts you have in mind while retaining full control.

My hat is off to Nonlethal Force who has written this piece of excellent support material! If this release takes off well, we're considering making a similar release (although much more modular) for True20, allowing you True Control ;).
 
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If this release takes off well, we're considering making a similar release (although much more modular) for True20, allowing you True Control ;).

I like the naming conversion. Just out of curiosity ... how far can that naming convention be taken?

Could you have ... Saga Control? Or Cthulu Control? M&M Control? Or perhaps even Savage Control?

On a more serious side ...

As I posted over in a thread on the DSP forums, I think the preview does a very good job and tossig out many sample character of almost every kind in the DSP/SRD arena without going into any rules discussion on why the abilities are priced the way they are. {That discussion and the various tables/exaples are left for the work itself!}. Obviously all the class abilities aren't represented. But there is a variety of examples - many of which were intentially drawn up because I've always heard complants about how certain classes just can't be done in 3.x. For example, a monk who actually scares people in a fight. Or a true "theurge" that doesn't lose a stitch of caster level power in either progression but instead trades spell variety for spell slots. Or perhap a blend of Ranger/Paladin that doesn't take a hit on the fact that class abilites in those classes are largely based on class level. Sure, every character has given up something in order to have control over what they are blended to become. But that's what complete control over the character building concept should really be.

So, I hope you enjoy the preview.
 


Thanks for that.

So a question, since I'm sure it's at the back of many people's mind or will be when they think about whether or not to pick up Complete Control.

What's the basis for deciding the point cost? I'll see if I can explain my thinking...

There's a fair number of people out there that are concerned with whether or not something is balanced. Of course, what a person is looking for when they say "balanced" does tend to vary, although there's a decent enough amount of overlap that such a conversation can at least be had.

Now, when assigning point costs to stuff, there's (usually) a baseline that's established and then costs to other things are assigned based on how such-and-such compares to the baseline.

For example, one baseline _could_ be feats. There's a limited number of them given over the course of a character's development, and while there's a range of "effectiveness" to feats, you can at least figure out some sort of base value using the PHB.

Another baseline might be stats. Again, a character only gets a certain number of stat increases (from leveling), and there's already a "rough" value given for stats in the form of the point-buy cost option.

A whole other potential baseline for the point-buy system could be C.R. Given the work that's gone into figuring out the math behind the CR system and making it more consistent (as seen in Grim Tales), in a number of ways it'd make sense to work from some sort of CR calculation and then modify that into an XP cost.

Any comment on the methodology?
 

Having looked over the preview, I have mixed feelings about it.

On the one hand, it was helpful to see the results of what Complete Control can do, since that's helpful in showcasing the variety of the builds that the system can handle.

However, those results were largely blunted by showing only what was bought, and not actually constructing the stat blocks for the characters. It's far less impressive, since we don't have the total stat blocks there to showcase the builds; instead, we only have the blueprints for putting them together.

In other words, the preview is a good tool for showing what the book can do, but doesn't effectively convey why someone should buy it.
 

I'll leave it up to NLF to answer for the methodology and answer Alzrius question right here - the honest question is that Third Dawn (our all-psionics campaign setting) is eating up our time and when faced with the choice between a quick preview that might not be as good as it should be or NO preview whatsoever, I decided to go with the preview.

Once we have more time (when TD is released) and if we haven't yet released Complete Control I'll look into getting a more "selling" preview out.
 

What's the basis for deciding the point cost? I'll see if I can explain my thinking...

Absolutely. I'd love to comment on that. And I'll give a short answer followed by a long answer. The short answer is that a complete breakdown of why all the mathematic choices were made as far as determining costs is included in the work itself. So, while a person has every right to agree or disagree with the decisions that were made in establishing the system, all the math and logic will be fully disclosed. The reality is that it's too long to go into here, however.

But, I will try to give a more satisfying answer that doesn't go into all the in-depth rationalization. Basically, what happened was that a non-human generic character was built through each and every level up to the twentieth level for every single class in the SRD, XPH, and DSP material. That took a fair amount of time in and of itself.

Next, each element of a class whas given a baseline point-value. For example, each increase to HD, each increase to BAB, each increase to ability scores, each increase to caster/manifester/channeler level, each increase to spell/power levels known, each increase to class abilities, each increase to saves, each increase to skills, etc were all given a baseline point value.

Third, these statistics were then tabulated two ways. First, these statistics were tabulated in a level-by-level breakdown o each class compared to the XP total that a character would have at the beginning of each level. Then, these statistics were tabulated adding all the classes together to find out what percentage was spent on BAB across the board, what percentage was spent of saes across the board, etc.

Fourth, obviously, the first attempt was not goingto work out perfectly. So, each of the progressions thatdetermined the cost of each independant aspect of character development were tweaked one by one. The tweaks were constantly being watched in terms of changes to level-by-level cost as well as the effects across the board for all classes. This process took quite some time.

Finally, the rules were then written only once a decent mathematical balance was met (and realize that my definition of balance may or may not coinside with another person's definition of balance). The rules came directly out of the math instead of the other way around.

Now, regarding the question to CR ... unfortunately CR is such a touchy statistic that while itwould be great to be able to use, it just isn't practical. I would have loved it to be so simple, but it really isn't.

Instead, I sought to seek balance based on the following principle: The great balancing factor in 3.x D&D is actions. A character who has great versatility can still only do one full round action per round. {Of course, barring magical aids like haste, etc} Thus, a character can feasibly load up on tons of lower-level class abilities and have a myriad of options available to them. However, each round they only can pick so may of them. And without keeping them each up to their current character level through continued improvement costs - they will begin to become less effective.

On the flipside, a player might only want to buy into a small number of class abilities but always mae sure they are as strong as they can be. In what they can do, they will be more powerful than the first example. But their range of usefulness will be limited.

Is essence, that is why I believe that true balance is ound among character options at hand. If you can balance quantity of options with quality of options you achieve balance in my book.

To use an SRD example, this is why the monk is poorly balanced, a well-built wizard is fun, and many people find sorcerers boring. The monk simply as too many options to really be useful. Compare the monk in the SRD with the pugilist in the preview. The pugilist is built for combat. It has a few options, but not nearly as many as the monk. But the options the pugilist has are all useful as the character goes up in level. Likewise, compare the SRD Sorcerer with one of the caster/power examples in the preview. Those who find the sorcerer boring do so because the sorcerer has two things: Familiar and limited spells known. By scaling back in a few areas and adding in a few class abilities, suddenly te sorcerer is still balanced but also has a few more options.

But to actually get into the number crunching and why the prices progress the way that they do, you'll have to wait until the product is released.

In other words, the preview is a good tool for showing what the book can do, but doesn't effectively convey why someone should buy it.

Just out of curiosity, what would? Each of those builds could easily be turned into a character. The stat blocks wouldn't be that hard to construct. They would need to be given armor/weapons, a race, and feats. I didn't make them stat blocks because variables like weapons/armor/feats are so varied and personal that it seemed pointless to do so. However, it would not be difficult. I hope you can understand why I chose to leave them the way I did, though.

If you would like, though, I would be happy to turn any of those into real breathing characters. If you so desire, pick one and give me a level to build it to. I'll take the example as printed and try my best to accomodate your desire for a stat block. Of course, since the preview is free ... others are welcome to take any of the examples, slap on a race, pick the appropriate number of feats through the level desired, and post it here. I think it'd be rather neat, actually!

Other than actually going into the rules of why the costs are what they are, what else would help you decide if you wanted to buy the product? This is an honest question, because in today's day and age marketability is often everything - especially until word of mouth begins to work for a newcomer to game-publishing like myself.
 
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Just out of curiosity, what would? Each of those builds could easily be turned into a character. The stat blocks wouldn't be that hard to construct.

Well, I'm not sure how much, but I do think that'd help. The point of the book is to showcase what can be done by being able to freely mix-and-match class abilities (as well as other aspects of a character, like Hit Dice, class skills, etc). The preview, in that regard, should clearly say "Check out what this book will let you do. You can't do this with normal classes!"

The preview, as it is now, doesn't say that though. It just sort of obliquely mutters it. It indicates what it can do, but it doesn't really show it.

They would need to be given armor/weapons, a race, and feats. I didn't make them stat blocks because variables like weapons/armor/feats are so varied and personal that it seemed pointless to do so.

If they're pointless, why not? ;) I just think a full stat block is a much more impressive display of Complete Control's point-buy abilities. Being shown the build to construct the pugilist is one thing - actually seeing the finished character is quite another (or at least, I think so).

I'm not saying to get rid of what's there now - being shown a step-by-step guide is good too; it just needs to flesh out the end result more.

However, it would not be difficult. I hope you can understand why I chose to leave them the way I did, though.

I understand, I just don't completely agree. ;)

If you would like, though, I would be happy to turn any of those into real breathing characters. If you so desire, pick one and give me a level to build it to. I'll take the example as printed and try my best to accomodate your desire for a stat block.

That's cool of you to offer to do so. I'd say, then, Baruk the Dark Wanderer.

Of course, since the preview is free ... others are welcome to take any of the examples, slap on a race, pick the appropriate number of feats through the level desired, and post it here. I think it'd be rather neat, actually!

I think so too!

Other than actually going into the rules of why the costs are what they are, what else would help you decide if you wanted to buy the product? This is an honest question, because in today's day and age marketability is often everything - especially until word of mouth begins to work for a newcomer to game-publishing like myself.

Hm, I'm not sure. Making the preview more accessible was really my only idea.
 

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