Our KOTS TPK (Warning: KOTS spoiler info)

[LightPhoenix]

I've posted it before, but I really think the biggest problem with the fight isn't the set-up: it's difficult, but manageable, especially if you retreat out of the cave to the runic circle and draw them out.

The biggest problem is Irontooth is basically a "gotcha" moment. Through the previous bit of the adventure, the defenders are at their best locking foes down, and the strikers are best getting in close. Irontooth basically penalizes players for doing what they are supposed to, with the double strikes whenever he has to move. By the time the players figure it out and react to it, chances are he's already done some significant damage.

Coupled with the rest of the foes, it takes the fight from dangerous but manageable to dangerous and often unmanageable.

 

[ExploderWizard]

(We followed the kobold through the entrance he took rather than the waterfall. In retrospect, I think if our table had been larger the kobolds should have pinched us in - Irontooth taking his guys around the back to flank us) due to where we happened to come in).

Ok splain Lucy!!!! We searched all around that area for a quite a bit before heading in through the waterfall. No kobold got away from us and the one we questioned didn't know nuthin bout no other entrance. I don't have the module so I don't know if our DM decided not to include it or if your DM made it up. Both ways are an ok way to go, still...............hmmmmmmm

 

[Nebulous]

Irontooth killed the rogue in my campaign, and nearly killed the fighter as well. I have a pretty experienced group though so they knew what they were doing. The rogue was just in the wrong place, he was too easy to hit and didn't have enough hp to go toe-to-toe with Irontooth.

I do think that the encounter is extremely hard, but it was quite fun.

 

[Maggan]

Hearing about group having really good luck, yet still having one PC down and three others badly wounded and then saying the encounter wasn't "terribly challenging" isn't exactly a fair comparison.

Heh, I'm not in the "fair comparison" business. I'm merely relating our experience and impression of the encounter.

To me being bloodied is not the same as being "badly wounded". Our PCs are bloodied in many, if not most encounters. It's a part of the game and how we handle that is part of the tactics. We have abilities that activate when bloodied, for example, or powers that are more useful when bloodied. After the encounter we take a Short rest or two, and enter the next encounter not bloodied.

So for us, "bloodied" is part of the job description, especially after fighting 17 monsters, one of them being the Big Bad Boss. If we have an encounter where only one or two are bloodied when all is done, that encounter is a "push-over", and wouldn't qualify for "terribly challenging" even if it used harsh language at us.

A challenging encounter is one where we have to use almost all of our powers, every PC is dropped to low HP, well below bloodied, and two or three are down making death saves. We have had one encounter like that in KotS, and from your description of where you are in the adventure, I think it's still waiting for your group.

Also, having one PC down after defeating the Big Bad Boss is an inconvenience, but all in all it is a speed bump. An extended rest put him and all of us on our feet again. And I expect a Big Bad Boss encounter to put up more of a fight.

So, it's not all down to luck. Sure some of it is luck. But for our group it's mostly down to using the Warlord to his full potential, going in with a tight and prepared tactic and executing according to plan. The fighter locks down the main opponents (with cleave attacks marking them, further limiting their options), the rogue using his mobility to zip in and out delivering massive sneak attack damage, and the paladin/rogue issuing Divine Challenges to further annoy and/or control the opposition. The Warlord gives us all bonuses and extra strikes, and the cleric stands side by with the fighter, dealing damage and healing the group as things look rough.

And whatever circumstances brought the Irontooth encounter to our successful resolution, whether luck was involved or not, doesn't change the fact; all told, it didn't particularily challenge the party resources the way a dramatic climax encounter should, IMO.

At least one poll I've seen here on EN World indicates that our group is not unique in regards to that.

/M

 

[LostSoul]

In my game, the PCs triggered Irontooth just as they were cleaning up the outside guards. Both waves jumped them before they could even take a short rest.

The PCs eked out a victory, mostly because I couldn't hit with Irontooth. I landed only 3 or 4 hits in the whole combat. (I roll all the dice in the open.)

Maybe the encounter would have made more sense if Irontooth had stayed in the cave - if I had followed what was written in the module! But it was fun.

 

[Aloïsius]

We interrogated a kobold and found out that they had a leader named Irontooth who was "not a kobold" and that he scared the kobolds but thats it.

That was enough for our group in the same encounter. We reserved our daily and AP against irontooth and BAM ! He felt in two rounds, and was unable to attack seriously before dying.

Sure, it helps that we had two strikers in our team, and that we rolled the right dice. Another thing that helped a lot was the flaming sphere who destroyed the minions on a regular basis.

It looks like the rule in this campaign is to keep most of your oomph against bosses. We will soon encounter Balgron, we already know he is a sneaky crosbow bad guy with a magic wand. And we have kept AP and daily against him, while cleaning any other possible reinforcement. He can't escape !

 

[ExploderWizard]

Also, having one PC down after defeating the Big Bad Boss is an inconvenience, but all in all it is a speed bump. An extended rest put him and all of us on our feet again. And I expect a Big Bad Boss encounter to put up more of a fight.

/M

I have to kind of disagree with one point. Irontooth is like the fourth encounter in what looks to a long adventure. He isn't really a big bad boss.........................and thats what's scary

 

[That One Guy]

Ok splain Lucy!!!! We searched all around that area for a quite a bit before heading in through the waterfall. No kobold got away from us and the one we questioned didn't know nuthin bout no other entrance. I don't have the module so I don't know if our DM decided not to include it or if your DM made it up. Both ways are an ok way to go, still...............hmmmmmmm

I'm not sure how I feel about being called Lucy...

Okay, there are multiple entrances to the final battle area. Since the kobold ran away towards one that wasn't the waterfall, that's the one we found and entered into.

If you were standing in the cave and facing the waterfall there would be two 'secret' paths out. One to the left, and one to the right. We entered from the one on the left. That way is actually pretty well protected naturally by walls.

If we came in through that way after a short a rest (which we did), and Iron Tooth was more clever, he would have had the wyrmpriest and friends attack us at that entrance. He would've taken some of the minions, a slinger, and a skirmisher, and exited through the waterfall, attacking from our flank (where the wizard and ranger were laying down serious smack). Since our DM was (mercifully) using the book's tactics rather than those I just suggested we survived. If IT used those I suggested we would have had a TPK, and I imagine a lot of other parties who survived would have had it worse.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I'm not sure how I feel about being called Lucy...

Sorry bout that

Thanks for the info. We searched those areas a few times. I guess our DM didn't want those passages to exist.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

My players (eladrin warlord, tiefling warlock, dwarf cleric, dragonborn fighter) had little trouble with Irontooth, although they were a level ahead of what the module assumed. I think a big part of it was that IT rolled badly a few times.

The only encounter that's given them serious problems is the blue slime. They were all level 3, and the blue slime is level 3 solo. There was a point in the battle where the fighter, cleric, and Splug (the PCs befriended him) were down, but the warlord managed to stand the fighter and cleric up. Splug died, unfortunately. (although I was going to make the little rat turn on them eventually )