Quick Draw for Rogue

[Sensai]

Hey guys. Just a quick question here about the feat Quick Draw when compared to Improved Initiative.

Which is better for a Rogue? Artful Dodger, Halfling if it'll make any difference.

My thoughts were originally Quick Draw, but, after having slept on it and thinking about it some more, I can't see why I would take it as there's no disarming in 4e, thus no point of drawing a weapon unless our group is taken by surprise.

Regardless, though, drawing a weapon is just a minor action and I'd only need one (unless I'm using a crossbow or something similar)...and I can't think of any other minor actions for Rogues, so I can't think of anything that might take the place of simply pulling another dagger out.

Thoughts?

 

[Kordeth]

Quick Draw is extremely useful for acting in the surprise round, which keys nicely with First Strike. Also, the following rogue powers are minor actions:

- Quick Fingers
- Garrote Grip
- Fell the Lock
- Hide in Plain Sight
- Raise the Stakes
- Sustaining Feinting Flurry
- Hide from the Light

Also also, remember that Quick Draw allows you to draw any item as part of the action to use it--which means things like one minor action to draw and drink a potion.

 

[Mengu]

There are also a number of items that are activated by a minor action.

It is not uncommon to find yourself climbing, disarming a trap, or doing some other task that requires both hands in the middle of combat. Quickdraw is certainly handy.

Comparing it to improved initiative, improved initiative merely gives you a chance to go first. So you are ambushed, but you make your perception check, you get to go first, you draw your weapon, and you are done. With quickdraw you will be able to chuck that dagger at an opponent.

And as mentioned being able to drink a potion as a single minor action is quite handy, compared to two minor actions.

I think for a rogue of any kind, quickdraw is quite a bit better than improved initiative.

 

[Whimsical]

The reason I took quickdraw is because I switch between weapons often. Normally, I use sword and board. But then I switch to long spear. Or, throwing javelins. Or, using a crossbow.

 

[SteveC]

Definitely quick draw.
In a surprise round, you can go from 0 to stabby in a single motion.

Similarly, any time you want to change the focus of what you're doing, quick draw makes you able to do so without losing any time.

Finally, if you're getting beaten up, how else are you going to quaff three healing potions in a single turn? It's like having it macroed!

Seriously: quick draw!

--Steve

 

[Grabuto138]

I haven't seen a rogue in action in 4e yet. Since you are allowed to carry a weapon in each hand and use either, and you can't use a shield anyway, couldn't you just carry a dagger in one hand and a shuriken in the other?

And since you have combat advantage against anyone who hasn't acted yet, and many rogue abilities are both light blade and ranged, and you have a shuriken in your left hand, getting intitiative is pretty handy. Just by winning initiative you can apply sneak attack damage without any special effort.

Does this make any sense?

Edit: Another thought. Assuming everyone is acting tactically, it would probably be best to give the potions to the defenders since they can spare a minor-minor in a round more than you if need be. Make sure the leader saves you a "word." When it get really hairy shift/move away.

Without having seen a rogue in play I think maybe Improved Initiative is much better.

 

[That One Guy]

I haven't seen a rogue in action in 4e yet. Since you are allowed to carry a weapon in each hand and use either, and you can't use a shield anyway, couldn't you just carry a dagger in one hand and a shuriken in the other?

This is almost exactly how I played my rogue, Henry. I opted for a rapier (w/ feat) in one hand. However, I would've killed so many times for quick draw (due to various reasons I ended up using my feats for other things... like backstabber, being a faux cleric, and ritual casting - don't ask)... for drinking potions, or when I randomly pulled out a crossbow to hit at serious range, when I shifted from my rapier to dagger, etc.

So, from an ex-rogue to a future rogue... there are better rogue feats. But, if the choice is betwixt +Initiative and Quick Draw - go quick draw and don't look back. (Also, when you have multiple magical weapons you'll be wanting to mix up your weapons midcombat)

 

[Sensai]

Alright. What I'm gathering, pretty strongly, is that Quick Draw is the much better feat simply for the freedom that it grants....at later levels? Or at all levels? The idea is that, with magic weapons, I'll wanna switch out every so often...but we're level 1, about to hit 2. I don't really need to switch out weapons (as I've just assumed that a +1 to hit is much preferred to a +1 to damage [this is correct, right?])...but still Quick Draw?

What if I were to go Improved Initiative until I find more items that would be useful to swap between, then, when I level again, swap out the feat for Quick Draw?

Either way, thaks a ton everyone. And, since we're on the topic, what are some other good feats for an Artful Dodger, Halfling, probably going-daggers Rogue? (Sorry for being so out of it...I have a few ideas, but can't really decide what to go for a second level feat).

 

[That One Guy]

what are some other good feats for an Artful Dodger, Halfling, probably going-daggers Rogue? (Sorry for being so out of it...I have a few ideas, but can't really decide what to go for a second level feat).

Backstabber is always a good choice for rogues. Weapon Focus:Light Blade will up your damage output. If you're all about mobility and provoking OAs, Halfling Agility and Defensive Mobility would make you pretty evasive while on the move. Lost in the crowd is good for fighting medium or larger enemies. If you've been adjacent to a pair of enemies consistently then it is probably not a bad choice. If you've been able to consistently get CA, Nimble Blade is definitely a good choice. I guess it has to do w/ what you're interested in. Mobility? Offense? Defense? Making your sneak attacks bloody murder?

What is your playstyle? What was your level 1 feat?
(And QD is better than +Initiative esp. for you. If you get a surprise round, you get one action. As a standard action you can throw a dagger w/ CA due to First Strike w/ QD. A Sneak Attack before combat starts is always good. W/out it you'd be drawing a dagger in that moment.)

 

[Mengu]

couldn't you just carry a dagger in one hand and a shuriken in the other?

Most people don't walk around like that when they are walking down a street or hiking through the wilderness (except in computer games where weapons are glued to the hands permanently). In a dungeon perhaps, but Rogues are always climbing, crawling, picking locks, disabling traps, and it's easy even in a dungeon to be caught without a weapon in hand.

Edit: Another thought. Assuming everyone is acting tactically, it would probably be best to give the potions to the defenders since they can spare a minor-minor in a round more than you if need be. Make sure the leader saves you a "word." When it get really hairy shift/move away.

Most Leaders will prefer to save their "words" for the Defenders to keep them standing, rather than the Rogue. Also at low level, potions can heal more HP's than the Rogue's healing surge, whereas a fighter's healing surge quickly surpasses the amount of healing a potion provides, so it's more effecient for a Rogue to use a potion than a Defender.

What if I were to go Improved Initiative until I find more items that would be useful to swap between, then, when I level again, swap out the feat for Quick Draw?

It is certainly an option, but I don't think that +2 difference is enough to give up the utility Quickdraw gives you. I also find feats that let you do something special to be more attractive than feats that give you a flat out +X to some roll, but that's personal preference.

Either way, thaks a ton everyone. And, since we're on the topic, what are some other good feats for an Artful Dodger, Halfling, probably going-daggers Rogue? (Sorry for being so out of it...I have a few ideas, but can't really decide what to go for a second level feat).

Backstabber
Defensive Mobility
Durable
Halfling Agility
Lost in the Crowd
Nimbe Blade
Quick Draw
Toughness
Two Weapon Defense
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus
Warrior of the Wild

I would try to alternate between offensive and defensive feats.