Non-lethal damage

[77IM]

That doesn't make capturing foes any more inconvenient for players (like me) who memorise exactly how many hp has been lost by everything on the board.

It still makes a difference. In fact I expect my players to track HP and apply the half-damage only on the final blow. But...there comes a point in the lifespan of many bad guys where half-damage can mean the difference between dropping them and letting them live for another round, which can in turn make the combat more difficult, especially if you need to capture multiple foes.

In our last session the group had to capture 3 gnomes to feed to a witch (don't ask), and as they fought, I let them make Heal checks to estimate how many HP the bad guys had left. Even with this knowledge it was a gamble: often they would deal half-damage for the killing blow... only to roll low and fail to drop the guy. Once the rogue critted and one-shotted a gnome; HP tracking didn't help there.

They managed to bag 3 of the gnomes, though. The goal isn't to make capture impossible or even difficult, just slightly harder than killing, so that it becomes a strategic decision rather than a standard operating procedure.

-- 77IM

 

[Herschel]

And let's say you were in the middle of a fight when they happened.

Would you say the concussion made it easier for a determined attacker to kill you, if that was his intent?

Would you say the concussion made it easier for a determined attacker to knock you out, if that was his intent?

-Hyp.

You make it sound like someone goes from Zero-to-Dead at the end of a battle. "Oh, he got tired, so then he got killed." Many times nobody "got tired", they just got beaten. They take damage, not just "got tired".

The concussion IS damage, not stamina. You could get a concussion the first swing.

Medieval-style warfare was not everybody pick an opponent and square off with honorable start.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The concussion IS damage, not stamina. You could get a concussion the first swing.

Sure. And it's reduced your hit point total, but you aren't dead. And it's brought you closer to being beaten - the swing you might have dodged, or parried, or shrugged off before you received the concussion is instead a telling blow. Which kills you. Or knocks you out.

That's what hit points are measuring - the likelihood that the next time you are attacked, you will be defeated. Low hit points might represent fatigue, but they don't have to. They might represent someone suffering from many wounds, but they don't have to. They might represent someone whose luck has nearly run out, but they don't have to.

Mechanically, they tell us whether or not an attack successfully defeats you, or not. If the attack brings your hit points below zero, that attack has defeated you. If it doesn't, it hasn't.

Cinematically, we have any number of choices for what a change in hit points represents.

-Hyp.

 

[ExploderWizard]

That's what hit points are measuring - the likelihood that the next time you are attacked, you will be defeated. Low hit points might represent fatigue, but they don't have to. They might represent someone suffering from many wounds, but they don't have to. They might represent someone whose luck has nearly run out, but they don't have to.

-Hyp.

That is the perfect interpretation of hit points. The only problem I have with the concept is that hit points are still closely tied in with CON (now more than ever) and CON I see as a very physical stat.

Once hit points and CON can part company the abstract nature of hit points can come to the forefront easier.

 

[Lacyon]

That is the perfect interpretation of hit points. The only problem I have with the concept is that hit points are still closely tied in with CON (now more than ever) and CON I see as a very physical stat.

Once hit points and CON can part company the abstract nature of hit points can come to the forefront easier.

I don't think it's all that awkward that physical stamina or endurance helps keep a heavily fatigued person from being defeated as easily as someone with less physical stamina.

I don't think it's all that awkward that physical stamina or endurance helps keep a seriously injured person from being defeated as easily as someone with less physical stamina.

I don't think it's all that awkward that physical stamina or endurance helps keep a person whose luck is running out from being defeated as easily as someone with less physical stamina.

In other words, it makes perfect sense to me that CON adds to hit points even though hit point loss can abstractly represent a wide variety of things that are not directly related to physical stamina.

 

[jbear]

That is the perfect interpretation of hit points. The only problem I have with the concept is that hit points are still closely tied in with CON (now more than ever) and CON I see as a very physical stat.

Once hit points and CON can part company the abstract nature of hit points can come to the forefront easier.

If con wasnt related to hp you might as well remove it from the game entirely.

Old Martial Arts Movie Wisdom says, strong body strong mind, strong mind strong body

 

[Snotboy]

I've survived gaping cuts and a concussion too. Oh, but wait, if a wound was treated/healed it wasn't actual damage, by your reasoning.

You make it sound like someone goes from Zero-to-Dead at the end of a battle. "Oh, he got tired, so then he got killed." Many times nobody "got tired", they just got beaten. They take damage, not just "got tired".

The concussion IS damage, not stamina. You could get a concussion the first swing.

Medieval-style warfare was not everybody pick an opponent and square off with honorable start.

How many hit points do you think you have? Do you think you have to be chipped away physically to be taken down? Zero-to-Dead is exactly what can happen at the end of a battle. Fatigue and other factors can make the difference between you raising a shield to stop a blade, and that blade taking your head clean off of your shoulders. One case, you can walk away out of breath but unscathed, the other is dead. In the first case, you can spend a 'Five Minute Rest', spend 'Healing Surges' to catch your breath so your uncut self can walk into the next fight fresh again.

Your sprained ankle likely made it easier to get a deciding blow against you. If your gaping cuts and concussions didn't take you out of the fight entirely, it certainly made doing so easier.

Hit points are abstract, and can be described in a wide variety of ways. It might also help to be in the frame of mind that your characters are heroes who should shake off injury and hardship. 'You know, tar sticks to most people' kind of folk. If you want something more realistic, I'm not going to tell you you're wrong, but I would suggest that there are probably better systems to reflect more realistic circumstances.

On an aside, to having special rules are circumstances for non-lethal damage--while I haven't played as much 4E as I might have liked, I've found an overlying theme among the rules: If it gets complicated, you might be doing it wrong. I consider that before I try adding too many mechanics to the game.

 

[ExploderWizard]

If con wasnt related to hp you might as well remove it from the game entirely.

Why? Why can't CON represent endurance and how much physical damage the body can take before death?

Hit points can be based on class and be a measure of staying power and luck in a fight.

If the two are separated then the nonlethal damage problem can go away.

When fighting, hp damage occurs. Whacking a completely helpless target means an attack on CON directly. When 0 hp is reached the combatant is "knocked ou" and easily dispatched.

What good is luck and battle savvy to the bound or sleeping victim?
Just go straight to the CON. Out of CON = out of life.

 

[Cadfan]

I think people are over thinking this.

You attack the orc. At some point you decide you don't want him dead, you just want him incapacitated. You say so to the DM and/or the other players.

If you decide this before you reduce him to zero hp, there's no problem. Any combat description that occurs will take into account your intentions, and any attack you don't bother describing can be presumed to take into account your intentions.

If you decide this just as the DM announces that the orc has reached zero hp, you say, "Wait! I don't want to kill him, just knock him out!" and the DM says, "ok." And then you or the DM describes you knocking out the orc.

Its not like the order that things happen at the game table translates into an actual progression of time in-game. If you want to retcon the attack roll you just made to deal non lethal damage instead of lethal damage, the world won't crash down. Gamers retcon things all the time in D&D. "I'll run over and smash down the door." "You mean the massive, iron reinforced, 18 inch think stone door with the winch to open it?" "Oh. Uh, I don't do that then. I go and stab the orc standing by the winch."

The rules are allowed to take into account the human interaction aspect of RPG gameplay.

 

[Zaukrie]

I'm with Cadfan on that last post. I have no need to overthink this. Heck, it was a pretty simple question, I thought