4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari mate!

Tiamat gets a standard + minor action per head,

I like it.

and each head gets a separate initiative, prerolled by the statblock even!

That last bits a tad unusual.

Each head also gets a separate action point.

Makes sense.

I'm not sure how movement is handled. I guess any head can forgo its standard for a move action.

Presumably.

There's also an additional ability that when all heads have acted, she can use a combined attack.

Ouch!

It definitely looks to me like each head does full damage.

Full damage compared to the Eldest Dragons of each colour? Or full damage compared to a Level 35 Solo Challenge?

It also gives a standard template for all deities. They always get a saving throw against effects and ongoing damage, even if the ability says otherwise.

Still nothing to solve the stun problem though?

They auto-know supernal.

Okay.

They auto-escape at bloodied (so that's not just a tiamat thing as was implied by Ltheb).

Might be interesting as a PC ability, give them the choice to flee (and fight another day) or stay and risk their immortal existence.

They can't be effected by anyone level 19 or lower.

I'm not sure I like that last one as written... on the other hand, I think it goes well with the earlier idea of making all immortals immune to ABILITIES below a certain tier (in order to counteract abilities that don't scale well).

Surely they mean anyone Level 20 or lower? Epic Tier is 21-30 after all.

But if a level 1 peon grabs an epic sword of awesomeness, I think that should count for something.

Its easy to use the higher of Artifact Level or Character Level for this type of thing.

EDIT: Ooh! I just noticed an awesome thing about Tiamat! Each head is dazed/stunned SEPARATELY. And combined with her +5 saving throws, keeping her from doing what she wants will be nigh-impossible.

Seems a no-brainer, but good that they included it.

 

[beej]

Sorry for the late reply. It seems that Ltheb and Fieari already gave Tiamat's summary, so I won't expound on that.

For the pre-rolled initiative: I suspect it's there for the benefit of the DM. I must admit, rolling for her five times might be confusing to some. Her level+dex mod is +26, so the highest count assumes that she rolled a 19.

All in all, I like having her initiatives at intervals of five, rather than having me roll and possibly get her 5 initiatives at about the same time.

 

[Fieari]

Full damage compared to the Eldest Dragons of each colour? Or full damage compared to a Level 35 Solo Challenge?

I'm not sure that they're all up to level 35 standards, but they're more than the ancients. It's DEFINITELY not just a copy of each weapon. The damage dice aren't always increased (though the +damage bonuses tend to be) but each weapon comes with additional effects.

The black head breath weapon blinds and does double ongoing. The spray also blinds.

The blue head deals 4d10+12 instead of 3d12+22 breath damage, but negates -any- resistance type of the target until they make a save. The gore has slightly increased damage.

The green head DOMINATES at will. The breath weapon has its die type increased to d12, and an extra 5 ongoing.

The red head's breath deals an extra die of damage, but it's key thing is that on a bite, it deals far more damage AND drains healing surges.

The white head's breath gets an extra die, and inflicts a -2 penalty (no save) until the end of the white head's next turn. The white's bite deals 6d12+12 damage.

Still nothing to solve the stun problem though?

Actually, it's not even a case of each head getting stunned separately. If you stun or daze Tiamat at all, the next head skips a turn, auto-saving after that.

Might be interesting as a PC ability, give them the choice to flee (and fight another day) or stay and risk their immortal existence.

I like it myself, although the ability implies that it's involuntary. Giving the option to a PC would be nice, although I think it shouldn't allow the PC to auto-flee at any time below bloodied, but be a one-time option. Either run away right away, or stay to the end.

Surely they mean anyone Level 20 or lower? Epic Tier is 21-30 after all.

"It cannot be attacked by creatures or characters whose level is lower than 20th." That means level 20 can work. *shrug*

Its easy to use the higher of Artifact Level or Character Level for this type of thing.

Granted. You'd still need to specify that you can't keep lower level powers (other than maybe your level 1 at-will) because they won't scale right.


Hope this helps. Oh, and note that Tiamat's aspect is a Level 17 Solo Brute, with much less interesting mechanics (acts just like a single creature). You might be able to use her aspect to design a polychromatic dragon. I might consider working on it myself... although I worry about where to place the wyrmling, as if I put it too high, the ancient polychromatic would be higher level than tiamat.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy beej mate - no worries.

Hey Fieari dude!

I'm not sure that they're all up to level 35 standards, but they're more than the ancients. It's DEFINITELY not just a copy of each weapon. The damage dice aren't always increased (though the +damage bonuses tend to be) but each weapon comes with additional effects.

The black head breath weapon blinds and does double ongoing. The spray also blinds.

The blue head deals 4d10+12 instead of 3d12+22 breath damage, but negates -any- resistance type of the target until they make a save. The gore has slightly increased damage.

The green head DOMINATES at will. The breath weapon has its die type increased to d12, and an extra 5 ongoing.

The red head's breath deals an extra die of damage, but it's key thing is that on a bite, it deals far more damage AND drains healing surges.

The white head's breath gets an extra die, and inflicts a -2 penalty (no save) until the end of the white head's next turn. The white's bite deals 6d12+12 damage.

Her bites seem really powerful...I like em'.

Actually, it's not even a case of each head getting stunned separately. If you stun or daze Tiamat at all, the next head skips a turn, auto-saving after that.

That auto-saving could work for immortals. I like it, what do you think?

I like it myself, although the ability implies that it's involuntary. Giving the option to a PC would be nice, although I think it shouldn't allow the PC to auto-flee at any time below bloodied, but be a one-time option. Either run away right away, or stay to the end.

Absolutely. You can't be expected to have your cake and eat it.

"It cannot be attacked by creatures or characters whose level is lower than 20th." That means level 20 can work. *shrug*

Easy mistake for them to make.

Granted. You'd still need to specify that you can't keep lower level powers (other than maybe your level 1 at-will) because they won't scale right.

I'm sure I'll have a few things to add regards artifacts.

Hope this helps.

Very helpful, thanks.

Oh, and note that Tiamat's aspect is a Level 17 Solo Brute, with much less interesting mechanics (acts just like a single creature).

Now thats very interesting, although I would have had the Aspect at Level 18 (17 levels less than Tiamat - the relative XP difference between a Level 35 Solo and Level 35 Minion).

You might be able to use her aspect to design a polychromatic dragon. I might consider working on it myself... although I worry about where to place the wyrmling, as if I put it too high, the ancient polychromatic would be higher level than tiamat.

I have been thinking I might divorce the Polychromatic from Tiamat...or what if each (4E) age category added a head?

Young Polychromatic (Two Heads): Level 13 Solo
Adult Polychromatic (Three Heads): Level 20 Solo
Elder Polychromatic (Four Heads): Level 27 Solo
Ancient Polychromatic (Five Heads): Level 35 Solo

Might be a good 4E article for the website.

 

[Fieari]

That auto-saving could work for immortals. I like it, what do you think?

Strangely enough, I think that merely giving it to all immortals is not going far enough.

You see, with Tiamat, landing a stun never takes her out of the game for an entire round, because she has five heads. What the stun actually does is limit her options and slow her down slightly. What we need is a mechanic that can make stuns have a similar effect on all immortals.

For brainstorming, consider the resources available to drain. Encounter abilities, daily abilities, healing surges, and HP. Other things to consider would be having stuns move the immortal down the initiative chain one step, though that could turn into a bookkeeping headache.

Another interesting mechanic that occurs to me would be a time dilation effect. Stuns would delay the immortal for now, but when he gets back into it next time, he regains his missing actions. Hitting/moving/whatever twice.

I'm sure I'll have a few things to add regards artifacts.

I await artifact creation rules eagerly. Hopefully you'll balance it more towards interesting rather than numerical effects, like the rest of the game tries. The trick being, those useful effects will now need to be GODLY...

Now thats very interesting, although I would have had the Aspect at Level 18 (17 levels less than Tiamat - the relative XP difference between a Level 35 Solo and Level 35 Minion).

So, they're not working on quite the same mathematical wavelength... but they're darn close.

I have been thinking I might divorce the Polychromatic from Tiamat...or what if each (4E) age category added a head?

Young Polychromatic (Two Heads): Level 13 Solo
Adult Polychromatic (Three Heads): Level 20 Solo
Elder Polychromatic (Four Heads): Level 27 Solo
Ancient Polychromatic (Five Heads): Level 35 Solo

Might be a good 4E article for the website.

The Draconomicon adds the wyrmling age category back to dragons. Need to factor that in. I also liked you adding extensible age categories to dragons, particularly in that the iconic dragon gods were all great great great wyrms...

Anyway, Tiamat being a polychromatic is perfect, as she has that tail barb (which dominates), even as an aspect. She acts as a single creature as an aspect, but that single creature deals all 5 damage types at once (in order to bypass resistances).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari mate!

Strangely enough, I think that merely giving it to all immortals is not going far enough.

You see, with Tiamat, landing a stun never takes her out of the game for an entire round, because she has five heads. What the stun actually does is limit her options and slow her down slightly. What we need is a mechanic that can make stuns have a similar effect on all immortals.

Well she does have five heads though, so she has a good excuse, why should other immortals have the same excuse?

For brainstorming, consider the resources available to drain. Encounter abilities, daily abilities, healing surges, and HP. Other things to consider would be having stuns move the immortal down the initiative chain one step, though that could turn into a bookkeeping headache.

What about the ability to use an action point even if stunned.

Use that in tandem with the auto save on the round following that Tiamat has and it should work okay.

Another interesting mechanic that occurs to me would be a time dilation effect. Stuns would delay the immortal for now, but when he gets back into it next time, he regains his missing actions. Hitting/moving/whatever twice.

Sounds like a nice ability, but not one I would grant to immortals "for free".

I await artifact creation rules eagerly. Hopefully you'll balance it more towards interesting rather than numerical effects, like the rest of the game tries. The trick being, those useful effects will now need to be GODLY...

I always try and give the best of both worlds.

So, they're not working on quite the same mathematical wavelength... but they're darn close.

I am still not sure if it should be

Avatar = -9 (as per standard monster of the same level)
Aspect = -17 (as per minion of the same level)

Or

Avatar = -10 (- one tier)
Aspect = -20 (- two tiers)

The Draconomicon adds the wyrmling age category back to dragons. Need to factor that in.

I presume wymlings are not solo monsters?

I also liked you adding extensible age categories to dragons, particularly in that the iconic dragon gods were all great great great wyrms...

Those were simply born out of the mechancis rather than vice versa (by that I mean I knew roughly where I wanted the (DvR 20 ish) Greater Gods to be, so simply extrapolating the epic dragon mechanics was sufficient.

Anyway, Tiamat being a polychromatic is perfect, as she has that tail barb (which dominates), even as an aspect. She acts as a single creature as an aspect, but that single creature deals all 5 damage types at once (in order to bypass resistances).

I may keep the polychromatic dragon the same, but have a "chromatic" dragon for the website.

 

[Fieari]

Well she does have five heads though, so she has a good excuse, why should other immortals have the same excuse?

Will you price additional heads correctly though? Because the head advantage is thus MASSIVE in terms of the economy of actions.

What about the ability to use an action point even if stunned.

Use that in tandem with the auto save on the round following that Tiamat has and it should work okay.

Hm. Actually, that does sound like it may well be good enough.

What do you think about increasing AP gain from once every other combat, to every combat? Making it an encounter ability, so to speak.

I am still not sure if it should be

Avatar = -9 (as per standard monster of the same level)
Aspect = -17 (as per minion of the same level)

Or

Avatar = -10 (- one tier)
Aspect = -20 (- two tiers)

I think WotC is thinking, at least subconsciously if not mathematically, on the minion level. You should probably stick to that. I mean, we know WotC isn't always as rigorous as you. Give them a 1 level leeway?

I presume wymlings are not solo monsters?

Black, lvl2 Elite Lurker
Blue, lvl4 Elite Artillery
Brown, lvl2 Elite Lurker
Grey, lvl3 Elite Soldier
Green, lvl4 Elite Skirmisher
Purple, lvl4 Elite Controller
Red, lvl4 Elite Soldier
White, lvl1 Elite Brute

Those were simply born out of the mechancis rather than vice versa (by that I mean I knew roughly where I wanted the (DvR 20 ish) Greater Gods to be, so simply extrapolating the epic dragon mechanics was sufficient.

Is Tiamat where you would have placed her then? I thought you were thinking of having actual gods start a little higher...

I may keep the polychromatic dragon the same, but have a "chromatic" dragon for the website.

Hmmm... polychromatic would be as in 3.5, but chromatic would be based on tiamat?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari mate!

Will you price additional heads correctly though? Because the head advantage is thus MASSIVE in terms of the economy of actions.

I'll have to wait until I can see the book and then go over the math.

Tiamat may also be 'that level' because of her multiple heads, rather than in additio to them. Perhaps with one head she would be Level 39...?

Hm. Actually, that does sound like it may well be good enough.

What do you think about increasing AP gain from once every other combat, to every combat? Making it an encounter ability, so to speak.

Possibly. I have certain immortal abilities that will require Action Points, so I'll have to look into that.

I think WotC is thinking, at least subconsciously if not mathematically, on the minion level. You should probably stick to that. I mean, we know WotC isn't always as rigorous as you. Give them a 1 level leeway?

Putting together my 4E adventure (pencilled in as L1: Against the Reptile God) is giving me a good handle on what encounters work where, and it is sort of favouring the second idea (where Minions are -3 levels lower than the immortal).

Black, lvl2 Elite Lurker
Blue, lvl4 Elite Artillery
Brown, lvl2 Elite Lurker
Grey, lvl3 Elite Soldier
Green, lvl4 Elite Skirmisher
Purple, lvl4 Elite Controller
Red, lvl4 Elite Soldier
White, lvl1 Elite Brute

Interesting, although no seeming uniformity. I was thinking -2 Levels and change Solo status to Elite.

Is Tiamat where you would have placed her then? I thought you were thinking of having actual gods start a little higher...

She is within the parameters for Gods (Immortals 32-41 Solo) but not for Greater Gods (36-41 Solo).

I would have placed her at Level 41 (which is classically a bit more Takhisis than Tiamat I suppose). However, I like the idea of each head being worth a level, so I may set the Polychromatic Ancient Dragon at Level 39 just for fun.

Hmmm... polychromatic would be as in 3.5, but chromatic would be based on tiamat?

Correct.

The Polychromatic might change to:

Wyrmling: Level 15 Elite (alternate Level 27 Minion)
Young: Level 17 Solo
Adult: Level 24 Solo
Elder: Level 31 Solo
Ancient: Level 39 Solo

Then again, physically they were meant to be the weakest. So

Polychromatic: Level 37 Ancient
Timber: Level 39 Ancient
Platinum: Level 40 Ancient
Titanium: Level 40 Ancient

That looks a bit better.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

Okay I know the consensus is generally release something...anything. My January vacation time got one step closer (the holiday is go, now I just need the unpaid leave to get the green light) and I am thinking that I can probably get three books to the editing stage by the end of my time off.

Those being:

1) 3E Godsend (100+ pages)
2) 4E Gods & Monsters: Volume 1.1 - Astral Plane (32 pages)
3) 4E Immortals Index: Canaanite Mythos (32 pages)

While naturally the 4E Immortals Handbook is whats needed, 'in the meantime' I think I could give a few small 4E appetizers.

Each Gods & Monsters Volume would have three parts .1, .2, .3, each 32 pages (with about 16 monsters in each - although that doesn't count variants). Small bitesize chunks that will come together as one 96 page pdf/print book.

The Immortals Index will have five parts, each 32 pages, that will come together as one 160 page pdf/print book. Featuring four different pantheons (probably Canaanite, Chinese, Egyptian (2) and Mesopotamian forming a "Bronze Age Mythos" book).

Behind the scenes I'll still be working on the Immortals Handbook and L1: Against the Reptile God. Incidently I am planning a brief Level 30 adventure in the Immortals Handbook called "No Chance" that will get PCs to 31st-level.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

U_K!
Good to hear that you are getting stuff done. (or are atleast planning to try to attempt to get something done )

I like that you have a gameplan for how to handle the books you want to attempt. One minor bit concerns me slightly: As with the 3E Immortal's Rules Set, you are writing and publishing the Bestiary before the Base Ruleset. In the past, this led to some design hiccups (The Nexus Dragon's deceptivly low CR, and the VSC madness) which prolonged Ascension's design time. I am concerned that without a baseline of "what Immortal's PCs are Capable of at Level X" that a similar problem may occur. You may write some "Astral-Mega-Demon" that assumes standards that won't make it into the 4E IH.

Now, I am sure, with 4E being out for ~6 months, that you have brainstormed whatever ideas you have and may attempt to convert alot of your 3E IH material, but the math-models are what tripped you up last time, and that is what 4E game design hinges on. 3E was a bit more plug-math-then-test, while with 4E I can generally plug the math, and, barring extreme stupidity on my end, the math will always play right. (In my first 4E campaign, the Big-bad, an insane cultist, had a rediculously high to-hit bonus. I forgot [when designing] that NPC to-hit isn't directly affected by wisdom. Essentially, he added his wisdom to-hit with his powers twice, giving him a +20 to hit at 10th level! Thankfully, while I didn't correct this during the fight, the PCs still faired well, defeating both the cultist and his summoned Berbalang, with a hireling as the only casulty.)

Otherwise, it sounds like you have a good plan. I can't wait to see what kind of 'Krustian-Krazyness' you have planned.