Why do 4e combats grind?

[shilsen]

Felon, perhaps you - and anyone else having problems with grinding in 4e - should take a look at this thread: How to build encounters in 4th edition, aka, Only you can prevent grindspace. Frankly, I don't see any real reason why there should be issues with grinding in 4e, and some of the suggestions there might be a good way to prevent that if you're being unable to do so.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Can we replace 'DPS' with 'DPR' in future discussions please? 'Damage Per Second' really has no meaning in D&D, and my irrational nit-pick-o-meter is twitching.

Damage per Swing, or Damage per Sequence. Pick one. The term is too useful to abandon or change.

 

[Jack99]

Damage per Swing, or Damage per Sequence. Pick one. The term is too useful to abandon or change.

I think his problem with DPS is that many people see "Damage Per Second".

 

[Felon]

I think his problem with DPS is that many people see "Damage Per Second".

Right, that's what it means the MMO context, where you don't have combat broken up into nice neat rounds where every attack takes the same amount of time to execute. While it's not worth trying to cobble together some new semantically-correct term, it is worth noting that the term is intended to represent a mean of damage over a larger course of time.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I see what Felon is saying.

Overall, 4e combat struggles the most with the narrative flow that is important for a good combat because it is too homogeneous.

Nothing swings. Nothing is niche. Nothing is unpredictable. Everything proceeds according to an exact formula that is not messed with.

There is no demonstrable hook that suddenly builds the action. There is no true climax where everything reaches a changing point. Combat is a flat line, not a heartbeat.

This is ultimately a problem of pacing.

Potential patches don't get at the core of the problem, but they might help alleviate it for specific players.

Things like instituting a delay on encounter powers (you can't use encounter powers until you are bloodied, for instance) might help a bit, but it's a patch.

Truly, the best kind of combat system would realize the importance of pacing to begin with....I hope FFZ does that.

 

[Felon]

I see what Felon is saying.

Overall, 4e combat struggles the most with the narrative flow that is important for a good combat because it is too homogeneous.

Nothing swings. Nothing is niche. Nothing is unpredictable. Everything proceeds according to an exact formula that is not messed with.

There is no demonstrable hook that suddenly builds the action. There is no true climax where everything reaches a changing point. Combat is a flat line, not a heartbeat.

This is ultimately a problem of pacing.

Potential patches don't get at the core of the problem, but they might help alleviate it for specific players.

Things like instituting a delay on encounter powers (you can't use encounter powers until you are bloodied, for instance) might help a bit, but it's a patch.

Truly, the best kind of combat system would realize the importance of pacing to begin with....I hope FFZ does that.

Good points across the board. As I've said, I hoped in vain that 3.5e's tactical feats were a foreshadowing of 4e's innovations, much as spell-reserve feats foreshadowed the end of vancian magic. I'd like to have seen encounter or daily powers each have a specific "buildup" condition, even if they're simple things like successfully damaging an opponent with an at-will, or having received damage, or having multiple opponents adjacent. Something that grants a sense of ramping up to a climax while players look for openings to pop the lid on that can of whooparse.

This is conceivably something they could introduce through feats, basically adding kicker effects if the buildup condition is met. Then encounters and dailies could, for instance, unlock that bonus to hit that players want them to have so badly.

 

[Vayden]

I see what Felon is saying.

Overall, 4e combat struggles the most with the narrative flow that is important for a good combat because it is too homogeneous.

Nothing swings. Nothing is niche. Nothing is unpredictable. Everything proceeds according to an exact formula that is not messed with.

There is no demonstrable hook that suddenly builds the action. There is no true climax where everything reaches a changing point. Combat is a flat line, not a heartbeat.

This is ultimately a problem of pacing.

Potential patches don't get at the core of the problem, but they might help alleviate it for specific players.

Things like instituting a delay on encounter powers (you can't use encounter powers until you are bloodied, for instance) might help a bit, but it's a patch.

Truly, the best kind of combat system would realize the importance of pacing to begin with....I hope FFZ does that.

Hmm . . . I completely disagree. 4e has the best pacing for combat of any version of D&D I've seen. You just have to DM it right. I've played OD&D, 3.5, McWod, Iron Heroes, SWSE, and Aberrant (not everything by a long shot, but a good variety of systems) and none of them compare to 4e in terms of dramatic combat. Check out the thread Shilsen linked for my tips on how to DM it right, but I stand by my statement that nothing does dramatic, tension building, well-climaxed combat better than 4e. You just have to get used to doing it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

4e has the best pacing for combat of any version of D&D I've seen. You just have to DM it right...Check out the thread Shilsen linked for my tips on how to DM it right, but I stand by my statement that nothing does dramatic, tension building, well-climaxed combat better than 4e. You just have to get used to doing it.

I think that anything that relies on good DMing to accomplish a basic goal is very flawed to begin with.

A good DM can DM a pile of bricks being thrown at the players' heads as a really great game, but that doesn't mean the "dBrick" system is a good one.

A good DM (much like a good group) can gloss over any problem and make it not a problem for that DM or that group. That doesn't mean the SYSTEM is good, it means the DM is.

The system is not set up to have really dynamic numbers in combat. This flatline is rather intentional -- it ditched the swinginess, the save-or-die, these things that caused a lot of problems. But as Felon pointed out, this does have a cost.

I'd like to have seen encounter or daily powers each have a specific "buildup" condition, even if they're simple things like successfully damaging an opponent with an at-will, or having received damage, or having multiple opponents adjacent. Something that grants a sense of ramping up to a climax while players look for openings to pop the lid on that can of whooparse.

Ayup, this is exactly the kind of thing that 4e could stand to actually encourage, since, for the most part, the flatline combat discourages it more than previous editions did, calling out the problem a little more starkly.

 

[MerricB]

I see what Felon is saying.

Overall, 4e combat struggles the most with the narrative flow that is important for a good combat because it is too homogeneous.

Nothing swings. Nothing is niche. Nothing is unpredictable. Everything proceeds according to an exact formula that is not messed with.

There is no demonstrable hook that suddenly builds the action. There is no true climax where everything reaches a changing point. Combat is a flat line, not a heartbeat.

I haven't felt this once I got used to 4E combat. I have been surprised by the ebb and flow of the combat, and how, in many of the combats, the action has been tense down to the last blow.

One of the most notable differences from 3e combat is that once a character drops, it's very, very hard to get them up again in a combat. If you're exceptionally lucky you have four healing surges you can use in the entire combat at the Heroic tier.

So, once a PC drops, the dynamics of the combat change greatly. If it was the defender of the group (very likely) all the nice holding of monsters in position for combat advantage and other bonuses go away.

Many of my combats have come down to the PCs nursing along their last hit points whilst they defeat the last of their enemies.

Unexpected events - sudden pushes, immobilizations, or other conditions - change the flow of the combat. They can be as devastating as almost killing a PC - get a monster to the lightly defended back line and things change!

Cheers!

 

[I'm A Banana]

I haven't felt this once I got used to 4E combat. I have been surprised by the ebb and flow of the combat, and how, in many of the combats, the action has been tense down to the last blow.

Tension shouldn't be constant, though. And it shouldn't be tension. It should rise and fall. Slow burns are exhausting.

One of the most notable differences from 3e combat is that once a character drops, it's very, very hard to get them up again in a combat. If you're exceptionally lucky you have four healing surges you can use in the entire combat at the Heroic tier....So, once a PC drops, the dynamics of the combat change greatly. If it was the defender of the group (very likely) all the nice holding of monsters in position for combat advantage and other bonuses go away.

But a dropped character doesn't raise the tension at all, in any of my experiences. It remains a constant, largely due to the predictability of combat: it doesn't change dramatically from round to round.

A DM can't rely on a "dropped defender" to raise tension. Defenders don't often drop, if they do there might be a second one, or a "second string defender" like a cleric. Dropping doesn't happen in every combat (and is, indeed, rare at levels with par-level combats where you can't quickly raise those who do drop because it "stops the fun").

Unexpected events - sudden pushes, immobilizations, or other conditions - change the flow of the combat. They can be as devastating as almost killing a PC - get a monster to the lightly defended back line and things change!

Right, but 4e doesn't exactly encourage it. The discussion on Page 42 shows you how tactically goofy going above and beyond the standard powers are, and the regular powers are largely known and understood by the first few rounds of combat, leaving precious few surprises unless you force them in.