Cascading Catapult Slam is the new old Blade Cascade

[DracoSuave]

Cascading Catapult Slam, page 23 Martial Power. Fighter Level 29 Daily, Martial, Weapon, requires a two-hander.

Primary Target, one creature, attacks Strength vs Fortitude, deals 4[W]+Str, and pushes the target 1+Con Mod and knocks it prone. Then, make secondary attack.
This attack is: one creature adjacent to the primary, Strength vs Fortitude, deals 1d10+Str, pushes target 2, knocks it prone, then makes this same secondary attack against a target adjacent to the secondary.

Okay.

So here's what you do. You have a main target adjacent to a secondary schmo. You're attacking Fort, so it should be easier to hit. You then choose to knock the Primary target zero squares (perfectly legal, you are not required to use all of a push.) You then attack the secondary, push it zero, and attack... oh... the first creature (also perfectly legal, nothing says a secondary attack cannot target the primary, in fact, some powers -require it-).

Then, if one of the targets dies, knock the other target close to a third victim, and continue until you either miss, or run out of targets.

Cascading Catapult Slam is the new old Blade Cascade.

Now I'm not saying this is necessarily broken, it IS a level 29 daily.... but... dayum!

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Cascading Catapult Slam, page 23 Martial Power. Fighter Level 29 Daily, Martial, Weapon, requires a two-hander.

Primary Target, one creature, attacks Strength vs Fortitude, deals 4[W]+Str, and pushes the target 1+Con Mod and knocks it prone. Then, make secondary attack.
This attack is: one creature adjacent to the primary, Strength vs Fortitude, deals 1d10+Str, pushes target 2, knocks it prone, then makes this same secondary attack against a target adjacent to the secondary.

Okay.

So here's what you do. You have a main target adjacent to a secondary schmo. You're attacking Fort, so it should be easier to hit. You then choose to knock the Primary target zero squares (perfectly legal, you are not required to use all of a push.) You then attack the secondary, push it zero, and attack... oh... the first creature (also perfectly legal, nothing says a secondary attack cannot target the primary, in fact, some powers -require it-).

Then, if one of the targets dies, knock the other target close to a third victim, and continue until you either miss, or run out of targets.

Cascading Catapult Slam is the new old Blade Cascade.

Now I'm not saying this is necessarily broken, it IS a level 29 daily.... but... dayum!

I assume this has the weapon keyword? If so, it's going to require you to be in melee reach of all of these targets, isn't it? So you're always looking to hit someone next to your previous target - you can't push someone three squares away and attack them with a weapon if you can't reach them, surely?

I'm not sure of all the text of the original power, of course, but although you've picked a good way to exploit it I don't think it's too bad.

 

[DracoSuave]

I assume this has the weapon keyword? If so, it's going to require you to be in melee reach of all of these targets, isn't it?

Only primary attacks are required to be in range. Secondary attacks do not use the same targetting restrictions as the primary target. There is precident for this.

And the Weapon keyword doesn't force it to be in weapon range, it's the Attack Type (Melee weapon). It's a technical nitpick.

So you're always looking to hit someone next to your previous target - you can't push someone three squares away and attack them with a weapon if you can't reach them, surely?

Again, secondary attacks do not require the target be in range of the user of a power, and follow their own targetting rules as stated in the text that permits it. So if I have a power that pushes you 10 squares, and then as a secondary attack tries to knock you prone, the secondary attack doesn't care about range any more. If, however, I have an attack that says 'make a secondary attack against a creature adjacent to you' that's a different story.

I'm not sure of all the text of the original power, of course, but although you've picked a good way to exploit it I don't think it's too bad.

Heh.

 

[Nail]

Cascading Catapult Slam, page 23 Martial Power. Fighter Level 29 Daily, Martial, Weapon, requires a two-hander.....

Now I'm not saying this is necessarily broken, it IS a level 29 daily.... but... dayum!

Yoowza.

..of course, my fighter is a looooooong way from 29th. But still....

 

[Smog]

He's one level away from being a god or an equivalent -- I don't see this as being that crazy all things considered.

edit: not to discredit your find by any means! Nice one.

 

[Bagpuss]

Only primary attacks are required to be in range. Secondary attacks do not use the same targetting restrictions as the primary target. There is precident for this.

Care to give an example of this precedent?

You can't be saying the second attack of Passing Attack (Fighter 1 PHB) can hit any visible target, no matter how far away they might be?

Because I can quote rules that say that the same targeting restrictions (at least for range apply).

"Unless otherwise noted, the range of a secondary (or tertiary) attack is the same as for the attack that preceded it." (page 59 under Secondary Attack).

So for Cascading Catapult Slam the range is always defined by the Melee weapon.

 

[balard]

My question is: It is the intent of the power? To me, the intent is to push violently away enemies, not a multi hit combo attack.

 

[DracoSuave]

Care to give an example of this precedent?

You can't be saying the second attack of Passing Attack (Fighter 1 PHB) can hit any visible target, no matter how far away they might be?

Because I can quote rules that say that the same targeting restrictions (at least for range apply).

"Unless otherwise noted, the range of a secondary (or tertiary) attack is the same as for the attack that preceded it." (page 59 under Secondary Attack).

So for Cascading Catapult Slam the range is always defined by the Melee weapon.

Which is superceded by the declaration of what the secondary target can be. Giant's wake, for example, says 'adjacent to target and within your reach'.

But if you had to be in range, the power could not work as described. You can't push something 1+anything more than 0 and have that target be in range of your attack. Therefore the power cannot work as described if secondary attacks -had to be- in range at all times.

Lastly, 'unless otherwise noted' certainly applies. 'Adjacent to the primary target' is -very much- 'otherwise noted'

 

[Eldorian]

Which is superceded by the declaration of what the secondary target can be. Giant's wake, for example, says 'adjacent to target and within your reach'.

But if you had to be in range, the power could not work as described. You can't push something 1+anything more than 0 and have that target be in range of your attack. Therefore the power cannot work as described if secondary attacks -had to be- in range at all times.

Lastly, 'unless otherwise noted' certainly applies. 'Adjacent to the primary target' is -very much- 'otherwise noted'

Yeah, he's right. The power needs to have the Hit entry of the secondary attack changed to

Hit: 1d10 + Strength modifier damage, and you push
the secondary target 2 squares and knock it prone. Then
repeat the secondary attack against a creature adjacent to
the secondary target that has not yet been targeted by this power.

 

[DracoSuave]

I'm not so sure about that, even if you DID push, you could use it as is to bowl two enemies over quite a distance.... but it's a level 29 daily, not a level 19 one, so it might actually be okay for it to combo for a long time.

And unlike BC, it IS disrupted by the death of one of the enemies, as a dead enemy is no longer a legitimate target by BagORats.