Piracy

[Thasmodious]

I don't think it is the effort involved that determines the morality. For me, it is the involvement of a third party which is key. In other words, if I scan my own printed copy for my own personal use, that's fine. If I print out my digital version, for my own personal use, that's also fine.

But if you go to Kinko's, its not?

But the second I make my efforts available to someone else (either by handing them a copy I've printed, or by distributing a digital version I have made), then that is no longer "for my own personal use". Now there is intellectual property being distributed for someone else's personal use. And that, for me, has a significant impact on the morality of the action.

No one is arguing that the person making the .pdf available for anyone to download is not guilty of an offense, only that is not morally wrong to obtain a .pdf copy of a book you own. It doesn't matter how the copy is obtained, if you have bought the book, you have the right to have digital and print copies of that work made, whether it is with your own scanner, Kinko's scanner, or some scanner from someone on the internet. The result is the same, you have a copy of the work that you are entitled to have. The actual act of downloading it might be a legal offense, MIGHT. It would be difficult to establish that you broke the law by obtaining an "illegal" copy of something you already own and have paid for.

Let's try another example though. You and your gaming buddies have all bought a PHB, but the books are nice and since 4e is the best edition of D&D ever, you plan on playing it for many years and want to preserve the books. You are the only person with a scanner. You scan your book, creating a .pdf and then pass the file to your gaming buddies, who all have a purchased copy and all have a fair use right to transfer media and have digital copies of the PHB. Are you really going to say that is an act of piracy? Would it be if each friend came over and scanned the book themselves on your scanner? How would using your scanner differ from using your scan? What if you made the scan while they were all in the room, and they each took a turn turning pages and hitting the scan button, since thats slow, tedious work?

 

[xechnao]

But if you go to Kinko's, its not?

Kinko or printers is a service. It does not retain any copyrighted work so there is no distribution involved. It just transforms it. Third parties involved in the distribution is the problem, not in transformation. I think.

Similarly there could be a service that scanned your books for a lower cost than buying that pdf. If such a thing would exist Wotc would immediately drop the prices of any pdf you purchased if you already owned a book.

I think both sides here, that is all of you guys, have a point in this discussion. So I guess it goes down to be a matter of personal choice. Personal choice regarding how you want to support Wotc and how you can afford it.

This is also true for the interests of someone here in the thread that said he is a poet. If you go on the aggressive and accuse people of selfishness you lose points on their desire to support you. Human society is way more complicated. You may be the best it can be but you also have to know how to promote yourself or your work to others or better say how to communicate with others. This is more important than the work itself if you expect some personal reward. I believe it is easy to understand this.

 

[genshou]

Regardless of whether the fine print of legality says it's piracy or not, I know the best smooth-talking lawyers in the world are no match for a judge who sees me sitting on the witness stand HOLDING THE BOOK IN MY HANDS. Can you say "case dismissed"?

Judges are allowed to throw frivolous cases right out of their courtrooms like last week's rubbish.

 

[Mercutio01]

I can't imagine paying for both the physical and digital versions. I was really disapointed when the "nominal fee PDF" we were supposed to get when we purchased physical books got the axe.

I agree. Despite my feelings with regards to the illegal obtaining of a pdf just because you own the hard copy, I wish that there was some way that a PDF version could have been distributed based on proof of purchase of the hard cover. Wizards went on record saying the logistics involved was simply too hard to follow through on, but that doesn't stop me from thinking that maybe there was a way.

That said I'm finding the searchability and portability of PDF's on a netbook alluring enough that I may just stop collecting physical books, buy up the legal PDF's, and go digital fulltime.

This is pretty much my thought. I intend to purchase a Kindle or Sony eReader and begin to do exactly that - purchasing legal versions of digital media.

 

[DaveMage]

My understanding is that it all boils down to "right to distribute."

The creator of the work has the exclusive right to distribute (or license others to distribute) the work. The consumer (buyer) of the work has the right to use the work and/or make a digital copy and/or print out for personal use only (no distribution to third party).

The only (legal) issue with piracy is the violation of the distribution rights of the creator. Anything else is probably extraneous discussion.

 

[Mercutio01]

The only (legal) issue with piracy is the violation of the distribution rights of the creator. Anything else is probably extraneous discussion.

That's only half the problem. The other half is the receipt of the pirated goods. Since piracy indicates the goods being distributed are illegal, the receipt of said goods is also illegal. Like my earlier analogy, a DVD player that "falls off the back of the truck" is being sold. It's illegal for the seller to sell it or give it away. It's also illegal for the "buyer" to buy/receive it (if they know).

And since the act of getting a PDF is a willful act, meaning someone had to actually search out for the product, it isn't hard to determine that someone knowingly received an illegal copy.

 

[Fenes]

It's rather stupid to claim that you are allowed to make a PDF for your private use of a book you own, but you're not allowed to download that PDF for a book you own. A legal system that does treat that differently is in dire need of some intelligence-boosting items so they can pass the "can communicate in grunts" level.

I buy most of my gaming books as PDFs anyway.

Morally, my stance is simple: If I buy a DVD, I see no problem in watching it on YouTube. Watching streams (as opposed to downloading movies) is not illegal anyway where I live.

 

[Echohawk]

Let's try another example though. You and your gaming buddies have all bought a PHB, but the books are nice and since 4e is the best edition of D&D ever, you plan on playing it for many years and want to preserve the books. You are the only person with a scanner. You scan your book, creating a .pdf and then pass the file to your gaming buddies, who all have a purchased copy and all have a fair use right to transfer media and have digital copies of the PHB. Are you really going to say that is an act of piracy? Would it be if each friend came over and scanned the book themselves on your scanner? How would using your scanner differ from using your scan? What if you made the scan while they were all in the room, and they each took a turn turning pages and hitting the scan button, since thats slow, tedious work?

I don't believe that what you have written above is entirely true. Specifically this bit: "who all have purchased a [print] copy and all have a fair use right to transfer media and have digital copies of the PHB". I do not think that owning a printed copy of a PHB gives you any right to "have digital copies". Owning a book may well give you the right to make a copy of that book for your own personal use, but owning a printed book does not mean that you inherently have the right to obtain a digital version from any other source. As least as I understand things.

So, if I had scanned my PHB and created a PDF of it, I certainly would not share that PDF with my friends. I would indeed view that as an act of piracy. I don't have the right to give a digital copy of a book I have scanned for my own personal use to other people. Of course, I wouldn't be scanning my PHB to start with, since the effort involved in scanning a PHB is significant enough that I'd much rather pay for a legal PDF. And if I wanted my friends to also have access to PDF copies, I would pay for additional copies to give to them.

Thasmodious, from the wording of your example it is clear that you understand that there is additional value in having the PDF versions -- specifically, using a digital version will "preserve the books", so that you can play "for many years". Presumably, that is instead of buying replacement PHBs every few years due to wear and tear. Given that the PDFs offer this tangible benefit to everyone who has one, why is it wrong to expect everyone who enjoys this benefit to pay for it?

I'm genuinely a little surprised that so many people seem to think that owning a printed book entitles them to download a digital copy from whatever source they want. To me, that sense of entitlement is worryingly similar to saying "I already own a copy of the PHB, so I should be automatically entitled to a copy of the deluxe PHB, and that makes it okay for me to buy a cheap copy of the deluxe PHB that I know has fallen off the back of the proverbial truck." That doesn't make logical sense to me, and neither does the statement "I already own a copy of the PHB, so I should be automatically entitled to a copy of the PHB in PDF format, and that makes it okay for me to download a pirate copy of the PDF version that I know is being distributed illegally".

 

[Mercutio01]

It's rather stupid to claim that you are allowed to make a PDF for your private use of a book you own, but you're not allowed to download that PDF for a book you own.

Keep the flames to yourself. The law is the law. You can argue all you want about the justness of such a law, but it's clear that legally you are in the wrong. The PDF was obtained and distributed illegally. Simply because you own the hard copy you are not suddenly absolved of committing a crime. That's like arguing that just because you have your driver's license at home, the cop should let you go.

Morally, my stance is simple: If I buy a DVD, I see no problem in watching it on YouTube. Watching streams (as opposed to downloading movies) is not illegal anyway where I live.

Morals are different from laws.

I would like to note that it would be nice if when you purchased a book, you got a key to download a PDF of that book. A lot of DVD's now come with a version to view on iPods and some CDs I've bought have included links to download free mp3s of the songs. It's nice because then I don't have to rip the songs myself. Indeed, I am considering distributing a PDF with my chapbook. I'll package the book with a CD which will include a PDF version of the book and audio files of the poems being read.

 

[DaveMage]

That's only half the problem. The other half is the receipt of the pirated goods.

Well, I figured it was clear that in order to distribute you need a giving source and a taker - otherwise there's no distribution.

(But I agree with you on your point.)