At-will class powers ruining my archetypes

[Ourph]

Removing at-will powers opens up design space for character types that are currently sub-par by the RAW. It doesn't matter if you are martial, arcane, divine, primal, elemental, shadow, ki or whatever other power sources they are going to come up with. Characters are limited by the at-wills that they are tied to at character creation.

This makes having characters that do not fit the mold of those prefab at-wills outside the ability for the RAW to deal with and a limitation of the game system.

The perfect example is the elf cleric archer of correlon. This character is not a very viable build. I mean, what would a cleric be doing with a bow let alone a high dex. A ranged cleric is a lazer cleric pure and simple and that only requires uni-pumped wisdom to be effective. With making basic attacks the standard instead of lazers it says, "Ok I can make an archer cleric because I am not losing anything for doing it." Thus it opens up many more character concepts that were previously unavailable.

If you eliminate at-wills and grant more encounter powers to make up for the decrease in effectiveness that will cause, it makes hitting with those new encounter powers that much more important to prevent over-extended, grindy combats. I think you'll still see Clerics pumping their Wis and Str to the detriment of their Dex because Str and Wis are the stats they need for hitting with their more-effective daily and encounter powers. A Cleric, under your system, that gives up one of those stats to have a decent Dex so that they can have a chance of being effective with their basic ranged bow attack is doing so at the cost of missing more often with the encounter powers you are relying on to balance out the loss of at-wills.

I think the much better solution here is to just make up some at-will powers that exactly fit the archetype you're going for. If you want an archer Cleric of Corellon, just create some new at-will powers that feature AC-targeting archery damage rather than Will-targeting radiant damage. As long as the archery attacks are still Wis vs. AC you won't be changing any of the assumptions of the game, but you'll have the flavor you want.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Can you buy me another keyboard

You can laugh, but I think this is the key point in the thread. If I'm a Wizard, I don't WANT to throw a shuriken. I'm a Wizard, not a Ninja. I also don't want to swing my sword at anyone, use a bow or any other option that doesn't involve casting a spell.

What you are suggesting is to put a limit on the number of times I can cast a spell. If you increase the number of encounter powers to 10 at first level then I will still be able to cast a spell every round. I will still not put any points into Strength or Dex because I'll just assume I have enough encounter powers to last until the end of every fight. I still won't use a sword of bow. It basically changes nothing except that I'll be using a DIFFERENT spell every round.

On the other hand, if the number of encounter powers is less than the number of rounds, than I will be forced to use basic attacks. It becomes very important to me to take Strength or Dex. But, I'll be forced to play a character who uses a bow or sword, whether I want to or not.

 

[WalterKovacs]

This new system would basically mean that Wizard now has recommended stats as:

INT, STR, DEX

Warlock have:

CON or CHA, STR, DEX

And so on. So the "more archetypes" translates to every character being secondary melee weapon or secondary ranged.

Since most of the non-weapon using classes are limited to simple weapons anyway, they are all going to look relatively the same, since they have access to the same weapons, they are the same number of feats (one) away from getting the precise weapon proficiency they want, they get the same access to racial weaponry (so an eladrin wizard or eladrin warlock both have longswords).

They have to buy twice as many magic items as martial characters. They have to split their stats unlike martial characters. And the monster defenses don't change. The arms race isn't PC vs. PC ... It's PC vs. monster. Arguably, if the entire group agrees to collectively be mediocre, the DM may pity them and send lower level monsters against them.

Not to mention, this completely destroys the concept of the shapeshifting druid whose basic attack/at-will powers in beast form are a deliberate way to avoid forcing weapon use.

Eliminating future class concepts. Having EVERY class be based around: 1 stat, plus STR and DEX, makes for more classes being very 'samey'.

 

[Sadrik]

You can laugh, but I think this is the key point in the thread. If I'm a Wizard, I don't WANT to throw a shuriken. I'm a Wizard, not a Ninja. I also don't want to swing my sword at anyone, use a bow or any other option that doesn't involve casting a spell.

Precisely the kind of narrow focus I would like to remove. Thank you, you illustrated this well. Really this boils down to flavor, in previous editions this was a "feel" of the game and the at-wills have shifted that "feel". You may prefer that new "feel", I personally don't not prefer that "feel" I just would like the game to give me that "feel" if I want it. By removing at-will powers I think I get there.

And as far as all classes having to buy STR and DEX at character creation. This is just ridiculous. Every wizard or warlock would not buy STR and DEX. Give me a break. The wizard would likely buy some DEX and not dump it to 8 like it currently gets done in most cases. Instead they grab a 14 or so and throw some daggers in combat or something at low-level, and as they level up and get more encounter powers and daily powers they do the dagger thing less and less.

Also there seems to be some confusion about what these two bonus encounter powers are. They are exactly that two bonus encounter powers not at-will powers treated as encounter powers.

I have some ideas on how to convert all the current at-will powers into encounter powers, namely, give them the 21st level damage bonus and be done with it. I think twin strike is the only one that would have to be deleted or modified.

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

Precisely the kind of narrow focus I would like to remove. Thank you, you illustrated this well. Really this boils down to flavor, in previous editions this was a "feel" of the game and the at-wills have shifted that "feel". You may prefer that new "feel", I personally don't not prefer that "feel" I just would like the game to give me that "feel" if I want it. By removing at-will powers I think I get there.

I reserve the right to say "I told you so" when it doesn't work.

There are other systems that do have that "feel", you know. Might I suggest Pathfinder?

 

[Sadrik]

I reserve the right to say "I told you so" when it doesn't work.

There are other systems that do have that "feel", you know. Might I suggest Pathfinder?

Ah but I think the core mechanics of 4e ar better than 3e. So now what?

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

It's nice to want things, isn't it?

 

[Obryn]

OK, I'll try one more time, since I'm bored and the thread is apparently still here.

As I understand it, you would rather that characters used more encounter & daily powers, and would give more of them to suit that purpose. As a trade-off, all characters would lose their At-Will abilities and instead just use Basic Attacks when Encounters and maybe Dailies are gone.

So, let's look at games that basically work that way, see why they work, and see if the situation is comparable in 4e.

3e is a great example, IMHO. Simplified: Your fighters/rangers/paladins basically fight the whole time. Your wizards will cast some very impressive blammies, and maybe plunk with a crossbow when they're done. Your Fighters will max out their Strength, likely boosting it more than anything else. Your Wizards will max out their Intelligence, since it's huge for them.

This works for 3e, and for prior editions as well. What makes this work, imho, is that the wizard's blammies are far more impressive than any normal attack from a fighter/ranger/paladin/etc. They can do things fighters just can't, and often their spells have rider effects that could be very impressive. What's more, they often deal a lot of damage to a lot of characters.

Now, let's look at 4e and see if the situation is comparable.

Right off the bat, imho, we have problems. Wizards' blammies are not significantly more effective than anyone else's. In fact, while everyone's powers do different things, they are fairly even, potency-wise. A Level 7 Encounter power will have similar potency from a Fighter or from a Wizard.

Both Fighters and Wizards will have, of course, maxed out their bread & butter stats. This isn't 4e-specific; it just happens in every edition. When a Fighter's powers run out, they're still using their prime stats and have only slightly dropped in effectiveness. When a Wizard's powers run out, they are basically done. Unless, that is, the Wizard has decided to seriously boost their Dexterity for missile attacks. They can do this, of course, but it's not as helpful as most other stats. It won't help their defenses, and really they're probably better off getting a few more HPs, taking a hit on their basic attacks, and hoping the bad guys die before they need to pull out the crossbow. On the other hand, Fighters are still using Strength, so there aren't any MAD issues.

So that's why I think this solution, as you've written it, won't work well. It takes a lot away from casters, while taking very little away from weapon-users. And casters don't get anything back from this; they're sizably nerfed.

That's about as clear as I can make it... Take it or leave it...

-O

 

[Remathilis]

I have some ideas on how to convert all the current at-will powers into encounter powers, namely, give them the 21st level damage bonus and be done with it. I think twin strike is the only one that would have to be deleted or modified.

While I don't agree with your idea, let me throw you a couple of suggestions.

* Consider a class ability (or at least a feat) that allows rogues to make basic attacks with the rogue weapon list using DEX for melee. (akin to weapon finesse). Otherwise, you're effectively swapping STR with DEX for primes, limiting rogues to archers (well, crossbowmen, since they can't use bows with their powers) or making brutal scoundrels THE ONLY class ability worth taking (goodbye artful dodgers).

* Consider making Twin Strike a power any class can use when fighting with two weapons (replacing the current TWF benefit with it; two attacks, not bonus to damage). This will keep rangers as twf people and open it back to fighters, rogues, warlords, and such.

*Figure out what you're doing with Intelligent Blademaster and Swordmages (Swordmage only: use Int for basic attacks) or you've just made the best fighter in the game.

* Keep Eldrich Blast as an at-will power. Warlocks in 3.5 could use it all day, so should 4e ones. We're keeping the theme of previous editions and not limiting archetypes, right?

* Certain builds will become less prominent due to increased MAD: lazer clerics, artful-dodger rogues, & shielding swordmages. They won't be as inviting as their str-based compatriots.

 

[Cadfan]

And as far as all classes having to buy STR and DEX at character creation. This is just ridiculous. Every wizard or warlock would not buy STR and DEX. Give me a break. The wizard would likely buy some DEX and not dump it to 8 like it currently gets done in most cases. Instead they grab a 14 or so and throw some daggers in combat or something at low-level, and as they level up and get more encounter powers and daily powers they do the dagger thing less and less.

This is bad game design. The players would rebel against it.

No one likes investing character resources in something that only matters for a few levels, and then stops being important, especially when those resources can't be regained, and trade off with resources that will be useful forever, and more and more as you level up.

I don't know what to tell you except that countless video games have made this error, and players always find a way around it. The quickest solution for most people will simply be to start playing at a higher level, and bypass the whole matter.