4 to 7 lost. Even an ability score you put no level increases into gets +2 for levels 11 and 21. If characters received a free +1 FRW at levels 5/15/25, then assuming you spread the stat points to two abilities that boost different saves, a PC gets +28/+28/+25 to FRW over 29 levels. This is the same average as AC (+27 over 29 levels, assuming you either put stat increases to Dex/Int, or have heavy armor), though your weak defense ends up weaker and your strong defenses slightly stronger.
PC Defenses fix.
4 to 7 lost. Even an ability score you put no level increases into gets +2 for levels 11 and 21. If characters received a free +1 FRW at levels 5/15/25, then assuming you spread the stat points to two abilities that boost different saves, a PC gets +28/+28/+25 to FRW over 29 levels. This is the same average as AC (+27 over 29 levels, assuming you either put stat increases to Dex/Int, or have heavy armor), though your weak defense ends up weaker and your strong defenses slightly stronger.
After some time to think, I decided to not go crazy about the worst defence. If you have good build you can have two defenses at good level. One much lower. I was looking at AC and hit rate.
25 level
vs. AC +30
vs. DEF +28 (+27)
AC
Max is 41 (10 base, 12 lvl, 5 ench, 12 armor (masterwork plate), 2 shield)
Second 39 (without Shield)
The other fall between this.
Attack vs 41 AC have 45% hitting rate. vs 39 its 55%. And I take this as baseline.
DEF
Max. will be 36 (10 base, 12 level, 9 atribute, 5 ench) - I'm not including the class bonus.
But resonable will be 34 (atribute bonus 7 (18 star to 24 (+7)
The lowest stat will be around 31 (10 base, 12 level, 5 ench, 4 atribute)
Attack vs. 34 DEF have 70% hitt rate, vs. 31 85%.
So I think that this should work fine (+1 heroic, +2 on 15lvl, +4 on 25lvl)
This will make hitting into 37 DEF a 55% chance of hitting and into lowest DEF 34 a 70%. Only feats that will be banned are those epic feats that gives +4 to single DEF. Other will be avalible. Now if you take the max. atribute on lvl1 (20) you will end with hit rate into defence linked to that stat at 45%. See some similarities?
Max. AC possible (without any addons) is at 45% hit chance, our max DEF is now too at that level. Average (the most likely) AC/DEF are at 55% hit rate. I think that ther's no better way to make it work in way not braking the game.
The racial +2 is just an additon, superior bonus that shouldn't be calculated at base math. That's why I just ignored it for my calculations.
Off course when you use the best possible atribute, give +2 calas/racial bonus to it, and then take a +2 feat bonus to stat, you will be most likely hard to hit (25%) but as you can see, the chance isn't too low now. 1/4 times you will be hit. But other defenses will be very weak with one drasticly lowe (at 27/28 on that level) so I think it's fine if you choose it that way. That's the final judgment about fixing the DEF bonuses.
25 level
vs. AC +30
vs. DEF +28 (+27)
AC
Max is 41 (10 base, 12 lvl, 5 ench, 12 armor (masterwork plate), 2 shield)
Second 39 (without Shield)
The other fall between this.
Attack vs 41 AC have 45% hitting rate. vs 39 its 55%. And I take this as baseline.
DEF
Max. will be 36 (10 base, 12 level, 9 atribute, 5 ench) - I'm not including the class bonus.
But resonable will be 34 (atribute bonus 7 (18 star to 24 (+7)
The lowest stat will be around 31 (10 base, 12 level, 5 ench, 4 atribute)
Attack vs. 34 DEF have 70% hitt rate, vs. 31 85%.
So I think that this should work fine (+1 heroic, +2 on 15lvl, +4 on 25lvl)
This will make hitting into 37 DEF a 55% chance of hitting and into lowest DEF 34 a 70%. Only feats that will be banned are those epic feats that gives +4 to single DEF. Other will be avalible. Now if you take the max. atribute on lvl1 (20) you will end with hit rate into defence linked to that stat at 45%. See some similarities?
Max. AC possible (without any addons) is at 45% hit chance, our max DEF is now too at that level. Average (the most likely) AC/DEF are at 55% hit rate. I think that ther's no better way to make it work in way not braking the game.
The racial +2 is just an additon, superior bonus that shouldn't be calculated at base math. That's why I just ignored it for my calculations.
Off course when you use the best possible atribute, give +2 calas/racial bonus to it, and then take a +2 feat bonus to stat, you will be most likely hard to hit (25%) but as you can see, the chance isn't too low now. 1/4 times you will be hit. But other defenses will be very weak with one drasticly lowe (at 27/28 on that level) so I think it's fine if you choose it that way. That's the final judgment about fixing the DEF bonuses.
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Offense loses 4, just like best defense.
So, 4 for offense, 4 to 7 for defense.
Given this, the OPs solution is not that bad on the surface.
However, I do think that with the sheer number of powers that PCs acquire over levels, that the solution should not be as great as the decrease. There are many ways for players to boost offense and defense, and shy of that, heal, etc.
My solution:
+1 to hit and +2 defense (except AC) at Paragon
another +1 to hit and +2 defense (except AC) at Epic
All PCs can use their primary stat for their AC boost in light armor.
The new PHB II offense and defense feats are not allowed.
AC is even screwier than the other defenses. The lowest AC is 8 lower than the highest, but it adds a 0 to +5 stat on it at first level. And heavy armor adds another +6 when going to masterwork that light armor does not. Any class not in heavy armor that does not pump a high Dex or Int every single time is screwed. A sorcerer might as well just throw in the towel and start buying armor proficiencies and get to Chain.
1st level Sorcerer that does not buy armor proficiencies: Dex (or Str) 16 (maybe) = 13 +4 (pumping every level) +6 magic +15 half level = 38.
Without armor feats, this Sorcerer is screwed already. The best level 30 soldier (like an Ancient Red Dragon) should be +37 to hit AC and even creatures like Orcus with +37 and Tiamat with +39 are going to hit the 30th level Sorcerer on a 2. That really is unfun for a player. Once people find this out, very few people are going to play an Epic level Sorcerer. Even their occassional two AC boost spells are not enough. They are forced to take Leather at a minimum.
On the other hand, Godplate and Heavy Shield = AC 47 at level 30 without armor or shield specialization, AC 49 with. These high level foes only hit the Paladin about half of the time, slightly more than that if he uses a two handed weapon.
But, I was unable to come up with a good rule to help Sorcerers beyond allowing their primary Cha stat to affect AC. At least they would be on par with Wizards that way.
Armor at high level with a stat of 26 (without magic or anything else) works out to:
Cloth: 2 + 8
Leather: 4 + 8
Hide: 5 + 8
Chain: 12
Scale: 13
Plate: 14
There is no clean way to boost the Sorcerer without messing with the balance here.
CapnZapp
Legend
To facilitate house rules like this, I have started a thread where we can collect all the items and feats etc that impact defenses (and attacks), so we know what we need to remove/restrict from our games:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/252766-index-attack-defense-boosters.html
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/252766-index-attack-defense-boosters.html
Alisair Longreach
First Post
Instead of dropping bonuses all over the place I think a more elegant solution would be to boost the ability score increases to +2. This would provide the needed +4 bonus attacks, defenses and light armor AC.
For Heavy armor a simple solution is to add the Agile property from Adventurer's Vault to all masterwork Heavy Armors.
Another benefit of the ability score increase boost is that it also increases some skill bonuses which solves the problem with Skill Challenge DCs.
For Heavy armor a simple solution is to add the Agile property from Adventurer's Vault to all masterwork Heavy Armors.
Another benefit of the ability score increase boost is that it also increases some skill bonuses which solves the problem with Skill Challenge DCs.
If you increased ability score bonuses to +2, then AC for Dex/Int boosters would scale faster than level, unless you also removed masterwork light armors. Changing level bonuses to 2 would also have a lot of other side effects (e.g., Tactical Presence Warlord's feature, and many other abilities that key off ability scores).
Armor and Shield specialization don't stack.
Alisair Longreach
First Post
Faster increase in AC for Int/Dex boosters is the point of my house rule.
The added Agile property allows heavy armor users to get an AC boost too.
That other abilities and features get better with an ability score boost is an added benefit as higher attack and damage bonuses on the PC side makes combat go faster at higher levels. This is a good thing as the players will have more fun and feel badass. Check out the Grindspace thread about why high-level combat should be resolved faster.
The added Agile property allows heavy armor users to get an AC boost too.
That other abilities and features get better with an ability score boost is an added benefit as higher attack and damage bonuses on the PC side makes combat go faster at higher levels. This is a good thing as the players will have more fun and feel badass. Check out the Grindspace thread about why high-level combat should be resolved faster.
