Weaning Off the Sauce

[Jack99]

I don't think it's too uncommon for one person in a group to be the go-to guy when it comes to game selection or general outlook on the hobby. I've cost Pathfinder about twenty customers myself, so it definitely happens.

I know it's not uncommon, I am that guy in my group. Every edition change has happened because I told the others it would give us a better gaming experience (yeah, i screwed up with 3.x, but that's another story). But if I came to my group next tuesday and told them: Guys, we are stopping the 4e campaign and going back to 1e or whatever, they would certainly ask why. And if I answered that it was because I felt that WotC didn't respect me anymore, they would just look and me and assume I was drunk, high or the pressures of DMing had gotten to me and made me lose my mind. Goto-guys only stay that as long as they have good arguments.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Not only are you quitting 4e, but you have convinced your whole group to switch to another game, based on WotC pulling their PDF's? Sorry, I am not buying your propaganda. Something else is the cause. You can still play while not buying any more products.

You'd be right to doubt me. That wasn' the whole picture.

It wasn't the pdfs. It's been going for a while. In fact, because of the way WotC has acted (lying about the release date of insider...and yes, they lied. They said that it would be out just a month before release...and printed it in the books. Killing Dungeon and Dragon...then casting animate dead on them. GSL and 3pp destruction. And others...pretty much what TwoWolves said in this thread) my group never switched to 4e.

We tried it. It is ok. I'm not a HUGE fan...and I prefer 3e. But we never gave it a good, solid chance because WotC kept pissing me (us) off. We played it to try it out and were like "well, ok, but is it worth it?" (IT being buying all the new books...even just the core..etc).

By feeling like WotC has repeatedly "given us the bird" we've felt fantastically uninterested in doing "the next great thing" or believing any of their propaganda "Don't worry, it's gonna be GREAT!"


So, Jack99, yes, you're right. This goes back further than the PDFs by a long way...but the PDFs are a prime example of the reason we've never switched. They are a different symptom of the exact same disease (customer disrespect).

I mentioned the Mayfair Games book as we're going to give that a shot for a while...because we need a break from 3e. That break COULD have been 4e. But it won't be.

I don't even know if Chill is a good system. I don't know how long it will last for our group (maybe just a one shot?). But I can say that 4e was good enough that it would have filled this niche of taking a break from 3e...maybe even good enough that we would have taken a "break" and never looked back....but we're not going in that direction.

We're not because, well, after we've felt like we've been "given the bird" so many times--we're finally "giving them the bird" back.

Go pound toads WotC.

 

[Blue]

This is a thread about letting go.

The PDF thing is annoying to me, more because of what they didn't do (communicate, work nicely with their parteners selling them, etc.) It's not a show stopper, it may not even be that famous last straw.

But really, I'm ready to join you in letting go. I play/run regularly with two gaming groups (more than one game with one of them). And 4e hasn't gained enough traction, so that in my specific case, I'm already near the edge of letting go.

I have to admit I've been "pure" D&D up through the editions so I haven't been of much financial support to 3pp, just TSR and WotC. Plus other non-fantasy systems.

But WotC as a company had done a large number of actions that have made me dislike them, and 4e isn't getting enough love from the people I game with. Out of 14 gamers I regularly play with, three are firmly switched to 4e, 3-4 (including me) enjoy it but also still enjoy other editions, one will play 4e but prefers not, two strongly dislike it, and the rest haven't been impressed enough to have even tried it.

Basically, in the balance of buying 4e books or not on the merits of my personal enjoyment it's a fairly neutral proposition. I don't play it much and don't expect that to increase. I do enjoy the books from a character building perspective, and I've mainly focused my purchases towards the more player-centric books. But the continued stream of things that WotC has been doing - fan site C&D letters, no OGL/restrictive 3p licensing stopping good character builders except their own, etc. has been actively cutting down my enjoyment of the game, tilting the scales towards "don't buy".

My little blip will be that I'm not planning on picking up Arcane Power or other books, just browse them at the sessions as needed for my characters. Sad too, I just switched over to a bard and am enjoying it. And really, my friend's gaming store will feel that blip more than WotC ever will.

But as Kamakazi Midget says, this is a post about letting go. 3.5 is doing it for one group, but the other group is split with strogn likes/dislikes both ways. I don't know if Pathfinder can bring everyone back to a common system, it'll probably be worth a try. Or maybe we end up trying something like WFRP v2 for a while.

But right now, I'm going to let go for a while.

 

[JoeGKushner]

By having the DDI, you really haven't done anything to... hinder future crunch acquisition so your game won't... 'suffer' for it.

However, I'm one of those weird players who believes that you can play most editions with only the core books. Heck, I know a lot of 3.5e backlashed turns into "core only" or "official rulebooks only" due to the vast swathes of crap out there.

Good luck with your semi-protest.

 

[the Jester]

I'm just not outraged by this.

Honestly, will stopping pdf sales affect my buying habits at all? No.

Was it a perfectly logical response to the piracy issue? Yes.

Will it eliminate piracy? No.

Was it a good idea?

That's the one we can't answer yet. There is, of course, an initial online furor, because people that frequent the Web are the ones most likely to heavily invest in pdf purchases. I don't think it will do much good, and I do think it's engendering some bad will, so I'm leaning towards 'bad idea.'

But, again, I'm not butt-hurt by the pdf thing like some people are, so it won't change my buying habits.

 

[Twowolves]

I'm just not outraged by this.

Honestly, will stopping pdf sales affect my buying habits at all? No.

Was it a perfectly logical response to the piracy issue? Yes.

Will it eliminate piracy? No.

Was it a good idea?

That's the one we can't answer yet. There is, of course, an initial online furor, because people that frequent the Web are the ones most likely to heavily invest in pdf purchases. I don't think it will do much good, and I do think it's engendering some bad will, so I'm leaning towards 'bad idea.'

But, again, I'm not butt-hurt by the pdf thing like some people are, so it won't change my buying habits.

"What is everyone complaining about, it's just a little paper cut..."

...999 paper cuts later...

"why are the lights going dim? why is the room spinning? I don't feel so good..."


The PDF thing is NOT the be-all end-all of the "nerd-rage" (as those who would like to marginalize the people with legitimate complaints call it), it's just the latest piss-in-their-customers'-corn flakes move by WotC. Just another brick in the wall, just another paper cut. Another in a loooong line of moves that pretty much says how little they respect their customer base, and why should they? Some people would buy a polished turd if it came in a box that said "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover. I've seen it with TSR )"Buck Rogers" anyone? How about "Spellfire", their attempt at competition with Magic: the Gathering? Or "Dragon Dice") and I'm seeing it again with WotC. The list is a long one, and it'll get longer since the guys in charge out there seem dead set on repeating history.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

I'm in complete agreement with you TwoWolves.

 

[kenmarable]

After reading the interviews and thinking about this for a bit, I'm taking a different approach to moving on. It's pretty clear over the past year or two that WotC is managing D&D by reaction (overreaction in my opinion, but that's more subjective). What's even worse, however, is that it's reaction without a plan. The management style of "overreact then plan" is far more harmful than any boycott could be - partial or full blown. So WotC management poses more threat than my spending or lack there of.

I don't buy into Ryan Dancey's "D&D death sprial", but I do buy into the reality of bad management decisions often leading to lay offs of good people.

At the end of the day, I guess I am more interested in supporting James Wyatt, Bruce Cordell, Mike Mearls, and all the other great R&D staff than I am interested in punishing WotC management. Even if I disagree with some of R&D's decisions (especially in the fluff arena, sorry guys), I at least know that they are trying to make a great game and are customer-focused. As much as I vehemently disagree with many of the management decisions (and aren't convinced they are always as customer focused as the R&D decisions I disagree with), I also realize those bad decisions can cause more harm to the company than I can with any boycott.

So I'm going to keep giving WotC some of my money in support of the R&D team whose work I enjoy. But I'm going to work on spending more money and showing more appreciation than I have to the 3rd party companies that show more appreciation for their customers. When WotC makes another boneheaded decision, I'll still call them out on it, since bad PR usually has a bigger impact than boycotts anyway.

And, lastly, to help let go and move on, I don't have exact figures, but from watching and playing D&D for decades, I have a feeling that if you compare the average tenure of management at TSR/WotC to the average tenure of a designer/developer, I'm pretty sure most of the current R&D staff will outlast the current round of managers. We can hope for better next time (or, heaven forbid, hope the current management get out of the "overreaction then plan" mindset).

 

[Fenes]

I don't need to boycott, since the only money I was giving WoTC was through purchase of old pdfs, and they've cut that off. I have the 3 4e core books, I'm not planning to buy more.

Same for me.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So you're going to wait... one week... to buy Arcane Power.

Yeah, at least. I'm not trying to change WotC, nor am I trying to affect some sort of boycott. This is a personal reaction, made on my own personal grounds, not something meant to have them pay attention. I don't exactly have any sort of organizational power to send any sort of "message." This is about me, not about them.

For me, buying a WotC book feels wrong right now, so I'm holding off on it.

But it's also something I'm often COMPELLED to do, so I'm discussing it.

I think maybe some other posters would feel a bit wrong buying a WotC book right now, too, or have in the past, or whatever, hence the thread.

I'm not sure that I can loudly enough state that this isn't some sort of method to get my voice heard or to change any policies; it's not a boycott. It's a personal decision. AA isn't the same thing as a boycott of the liquor industry, after all.