How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[Raven Crowking]

Not exactly. It changes who gets to determine what target's nature is (from the DM to the person playing the fighter, at least temporarily, and only with regard to the question 'do I close?').

Which means either (1) the target had no nature previous to the power's use (i.e., the game world operates with an indeterminate Schrodinger's Nature) or (2) the target's nature can actually be changed by the power.

Don't blame me, I didn't make 4e a class-based game.

IME, many class-based games do not suffer from this problem. Besides, I am not blaming you; I am simply denying that your interpretation makes more sense than the "It's magic" interpretation.

Also, remember that anyone can try to taunt/challenge opponents into closing with them. Use of CaGI just guarantees the result.

But couldn't this also apply to magic? Everyone can cast Fireball, but it's so hard you will probably only succeed with a power granting you an effective bonus?

You could, but "All abilities are magic, and magic is available to all" is so far from the implied reality of pre-4e D&D that some of those playing 4e D&D seem to have a very hard time accepting that this is the implied reality 4e is using.

I could just set the DC for C&G so high that you can never succeed without the bonus from the power. What does this change in actual play?

AFAICT, it would only make obvious how out of keeping with expected reality C&GI actually is. We would see the DC, we would know it felt wrong, and we would question the world in which C&GI is necessary.......Or, if the DC felt right, we would more clearly determine that C&GI is a supernatural ability.


RC

 

[Scribble]

Well said, LostSoul......but I would go even farther.

If it is a mundane power, then C&GI should be available to anyone to try at any time, and the "power" itself should effectively be a bonus.


RC

Technicaly it is, as others have said. Using the rules on page 42, a player can (and should) attempt to do just about anything, and the DM has a quick suggestion on how to resolve it.

CaGI just offers the player a bonus. (In that he doesn't have to do anything special to make it work.)

 

[ExploderWizard]

I think too much time is wasted on trying to think about "simulating" anything instead of caring about the actual game experience.

Simulating actual reality with D&D rules is a futile exercise. Simulating a working, consistent fantasy world with its own reality plays a large role in the actual game experience for some of us.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Simulating actual reality with D&D rules is a futile exercise. Simulating a working, consistent fantasy world with its own reality plays a large role in the actual game experience for some of us.

Sorry, EW, but I apparently need to spread some XP around before giving more to you.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Technicaly it is, as others have said. Using the rules on page 42, a player can (and should) attempt to do just about anything, and the DM has a quick suggestion on how to resolve it.

CaGI just offers the player a bonus. (In that he doesn't have to do anything special to make it work.)

"All abilities are magic, and magic is available to all" is so far from the implied reality of pre-4e D&D that some of those playing 4e D&D seem to have a very hard time accepting that this is the implied reality 4e is using.


RC

 

[Scribble]

AFAICT, it would only make obvious how out of keeping with expected reality C&GI actually is. We would see the DC, we would know it felt wrong, and we would question the world in which C&GI is necessary.......Or, if the DC felt right, we would more clearly determine that C&GI is a supernatural ability.

Why should the game have to dictate that to me? As it stands I can play it any way I want to. I can play it as a mundane effect if I want, or I can play it as a supernatural effect if I want without having to rework all the rules.

Uthgar stomps mightily on the wooden floor, causing the planks to burst up sending his assailants tumbling towards him!

Uthgar screams a resounding cry, challenging all his foes to aproach. They do!

Uthgar reaches deep wthin his soul calling out to the power of his ancestors, he feels the power of the blade masters fuel his rage. With a mighty shout he compells his foes to come closer!

All of the above work within the context of CaGI. Which makes me happy. A game system that is mutable, in my opinion, is much more fun, and much more open to use.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Why should the game have to dictate that to me? As it stands I can play it any way I want to. I can play it as a mundane effect if I want, or I can play it as a supernatural effect if I want without having to rework all the rules.

If Power 1 has qualities A, B, C, and D, then an interpretation that ignores quality C or D doesn't successfully interpret the power, even if it is inclusive of the other three qualities. Hence, while as it stands you can play it any way you want to, the interpretations offered do not successfully interpret the power, as they ignore qualities of the power to make the mundane interpretation "successful".

Again, "All abilities are magic, and magic is available to all" is so far from the implied reality of pre-4e D&D that some of those playing 4e D&D seem to have a very hard time accepting that this is the implied reality 4e is using.


RC

 

[ExploderWizard]

Uthgar whimpers in frustration upon realizing that his challenging shout is on cooldown. Gwydion promises to raise Magnar the Magnificent after the battle.

 

[Mad Mac]

Does this 'Come and get it' thing require a saving throw roll vs. a defence? Or is it automatic? Is there a duration? Do they get a saving throw every round or something?

I know you already got an answer on this (it's an encounter power btw) I just felt like pointing out that although every discussion of martial powers ever seems to gravitate towards 'Come and Get it' the power is actually an abberation, design-wise. There are a large number of similar martial powers that came out after the PHB that require a succesful attack vs will in order to move the target.

I don't have any problem with how the power works, personally, but it is a bit irksome to see people constantly basing their arguement around a single power that works differently than most.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I know you already got an answer on this (it's an encounter power btw) I just felt like pointing out that although every discussion of martial powers ever seems to gravitate towards 'Come and Get it' the power is actually an abberation, design-wise.

Because the problems with C&GI are the most blatant. It is not alone -- the whole idea of a mundane power that is usable once per day is questionable (at best).


RC