Forked Thread: Twilight of the Warlocks

[Felon]

I don't know where the idea that warlocks get more riders on their powers than sorcerers came from. Sorcerers get tons of riders on their powers and they have many more multi-target powers. So, while the warlock is hitting one enemy who he might get extra damage on (if he could curse it) and gets a rider on it, the sorcerer is hitting multiple enemies, always getting his extra damage on them, and getting a rider onto every single one.

True. Folks who want to make lemonade out of lemons or like to play devil's advocate on the forums are very quick to try to make the warlock sound like he gets all these wonderful rider effects that nobody else does. As I said, this is a very hard position to support because one would have to provide proof that warlock powers categorically do something that other strikers' powers can't. Just pointing out one or two "neat effect" powers doesn't cut it, because you can find one or two "neat effect" powers in any powerset.

I would say, however, that the sorcerer seems to be designed to have mild rider effects amd utility powers. For instance, whereas a warlock encounter power might tack on a slide effect, a sorcerer encounter of equivalent level would just get a push effect--but better damage. Not a balanced trade-off IMO.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The Striker Role is not just DPR. It's also bringing the hurt where you need and want it. Mobility and Range are very important for Strikers, and I think the Warlock does well in that area.

I dont understand the desire for massive amounts of mobility. Movement doesnt exactly win fights, and warlocks have too many range 5 attacks to really claim range as a schtick.

 

[Cadfan]

Someone mentioned the at wills, so lets just toss this out there: theyr'e basically the same.

A typical sorcerer single target at will power clocks in at about 1d8+cha, with the sorcerer bonus damage of +secondary stat, and some kind of secondary effect. Subtract the secondary effect and make the attack work as a ranged basic, and you get 1d10+cha +secondary stat. With an 18 primary and a 14 secondary, you get an average damage of 10.5 plus a secondary ability, or 11.5. With a 16 secondary stat it bumps up to 11.5/12.5, respectively.

Meanwhile a warlock clocks in at 1d6+cha +1d6. With an 18 charisma this averages an 11. Meanwhile you get a very powerful secondary effect (for several builds the secondary effect is a possible additional damage of 1d6+cha, averaging 7.5, and scaling with both your primary ability score and your implement). If you opt for eldritch blast, it averages an even 13.

I don't know what else to say except that.

As for defense? Typical sorcerer starting AC is about a 12, maybe a 13. Typical warlock starting AC is 14, maybe a 15, with Shadow Walk available. This is not unimportant.

 

[Felon]

Someone mentioned the at wills, so lets just toss this out there: theyr'e basically the same.

A typical sorcerer single target at will power clocks in at about 1d8+cha, with the sorcerer bonus damage of +secondary stat, and some kind of secondary effect. Subtract the secondary effect and make the attack work as a ranged basic, and you get 1d10+cha +secondary stat. With an 18 primary and a 14 secondary, you get an average damage of 10.5 plus a secondary ability, or 11.5. With a 16 secondary stat it bumps up to 11.5/12.5, respectively.

Meanwhile a warlock clocks in at 1d6+cha +1d6. With an 18 charisma this averages an 11. Meanwhile you get a very powerful secondary effect (for several builds the secondary effect is a possible additional damage of 1d6+cha, averaging 7.5, and scaling with both your primary ability score and your implement). If you opt for eldritch blast, it averages an even 13.

I don't know what else to say except that.

There are a number of additional factors to focus on.

First, the sorcerer's damage bonus is a given. The warlock's is not. Sounds easy enough to make sure the target you want to attack is the nearest and then spend a minor action to curse it, but in practice it isn't a sure thing.

Second, the eldritch blast is pretty much rubbish. It's inferior to the basic attack that a ranger takes completely for granted and likely never uses. The sorcerer has acid orb, which is virtually identical, except it's not mandatory and if you take the feat that allows the sorcerer to turn ranged attacks into melee attacks, it's now actually a viable option because it can be used for oppies.

Third, to portray the sorcerer's at-wills as all doing a d8 damage to a target is to overlook its best attacks. Chaos Bolt is 1d10+Cha, plus 1d6+Cha to anyone it chains to. For dragon sorcerers, there's the at-will close attack. The sorcerer is set up for at-will multiple-target damage, and his damage adder (for Dex or Str) will add to each hit. IMO, it's pretty clear-cut that you take your build's special at-will, and then you tack on whatever other at-will you want to play around with. That's a strak contrast as to having two powers shackled to your wrists.

As for defense? Typical sorcerer starting AC is about a 12, maybe a 13. Typical warlock starting AC is 14, maybe a 15, with Shadow Walk available. This is not unimportant.

As I stated previously, it's pretty much a given that the sorcerer spends the feat to get leather armor. The sorcerer has some extra ability that grants a conditional AC boost of +1, whereas the warlock has shadow walk, which is effectively +2, and more reliable than the various sorcerer AC boosts. The warlock comes out a ahead, but AC remains a weak point for both classes. To borrow a line from the 3e DMG, becoming worse at something your archetype is already weak at isn't a good trade-off for jacking up your archetype's strengths.

 

[Minigiant]

Obviously you guys have nice DMs. Many DMs require you to actually defend youself. Warlocks are hard to kill because half the time you don't want to hit them, and the other half you can.


The strength of the warlock is their pact at-will. Dire Radiance/Eyebite/Hellish Rebuke ensure that when I shoot you, you most likely will choose another target. My warlock almost never hits single digit HP because no one can/will hit him. Warlocks discourage skrimishers and lurkers from chasing them around the battlefield. My starlock Dire Radiances non-brutes/soldiers to death because they'll die faster if they chase me and do nothing if they don't. 3d6+8 every other turn is nice. It's not big sorcerer damage but I don't die.

 

[Felon]

Obviously you guys have nice DMs. Many DMs require you to actually defend youself. Warlocks are hard to kill because half the time you don't want to hit them, and the other half you can.

The strength of the warlock is their pact at-will. Dire Radiance/Eyebite/Hellish Rebuke ensure that when I shoot you, you most likely will choose another target. My warlock almost never hits single digit HP because no one can/will hit him. Warlocks discourage skrimishers and lurkers from chasing them around the battlefield. My starlock Dire Radiances non-brutes/soldiers to death because they'll die faster if they chase me and do nothing if they don't. 3d6+8 every other turn is nice. It's not big sorcerer damage but I don't die.

Obviously, your DM has purple hair and plays the xylophone with a halibut in his free time. There, I just matched you one hasty assumption for another.

If I were to make yet another hasty assumption, it would be that obviously your party makes inadequate use of defenders. Those guys exist to get between you and the enemy. They become the guys your enemies stand-toe-to-toe with. They soak up attacks that would be directed at you. In other words, through the execution of their roles, they diminish the benefits that Eyebite, Dire Radiance, and Hellish Rebuke provide, not to mention ensure that Prime Shot is unusable more often than not. Defenders. Can't live'em with'em, can't live without'em.

My warlock doesn't take a lot of damage either. When I chuck out Hellish Rebuke, the DM attacks somebody else. He probably wasn't going to attack me anyway, so no big whoop. Sometimes I provoke an oppy just to get the damn kicker. Of course, I suspect the rest of the party would rather have a bruised striker that drops the hammer on foes than an unscathed one that just plinks away for less damage than the maul-wielding warlord.

 

[Minigiant]

If my defender can't get between me and the other guy because I'm all over the place, man. Plus he's usually too busy saving the leader's and other strikers' butts.
My typical combat is:

I curse and Radiance an enemy (with prime shot)
Enemy charges at someone eles
I use encounter power or Blast him
Enemy comes after me
I Radiance him again (with prime shot)
Enemy comes after me and takes more damage OR charges at someone eles.

I outdamage everyone because I never have to use a second wind, double move to run away, get hit with basic attack that dazes, get knocked prone by some giant monster, get smashed by some close blast power, or falls unconscious.

 

[Felon]

I curse and Radiance an enemy (with prime shot)
My typical combat is:
Enemy charges at someone eles
I use encounter power or Blast him
Enemy comes after me
I Radiance him again (with prime shot)
Enemy comes after me and takes more damage OR charges at someone eles.

Pretty bizarre for a typical combat. Seems that even without Dire Radiance, an enemy has a large incentive to simply approach one opponent and work him over, not bounce around taking constant oppies. And claiming that Prime Shot bonus seems hasty, especially if he charged somebody last round. How is a ranged combatant in a melee-heavy game going to routinely be the closest to his target?

And it's kind of odd to assert that you don't get attacked while also claiming you routinely get kicker damage that only kicks in when you're attacked.

 

[Cadfan]

[snip]

Yeah, yeah.

I felt I was actually being generous to the sorcerer. I didn't count Prime Shot, or point out the painful design of giving a bunch of close burst powers to someone who's base AC is 10 + secondary stat. Its true that sorcerers can take leather armor, but I'm not sure how spending a feat tax to be as good as a warlock who doesn't have Shadow Walk is a selling point. Its a good feat to take, sure, but its still a cost and the warlock undoubtedly took a feat as well at that level, giving him some other advantage.

As for getting to attack your cursed target, I haven't found it to be an issue in our games. Getting Prime Shot, yes, that's been am issue at times. But getting to attack a cursed foe hasn't ever been a problem. Our warlock is an eladrin fey pact though, so he's probably the most maneuverable character in the game.

Honestly, the more I look at their powers the less I see the sorcerer's damage actually exceeding the warlocks. If I had to list, I'd say these are the strengths of the warlock at this point:

1. Defense
2. Mobility
3. Better control (warlock at wills that set restrictions tend to inflict secondary stat damage on you if you violate those restrictions. Meanwhile warlock at wills that do the same deal 1d6+primary stat.)

While the sorcerer has

1. Area of effect attacks
2. Better randomized or uncontrolled effects.
3. Doesn't have to take Eldritch Blast.

I can see how you would find the sorcerer a better class if you think that defense is stupid for a striker. I just don't think that.

 

[Victim]

It's less that defense is useless.

However, combining good defenses with anti-marking mechanics like Hellish Rebuke seems counterproductive. The whole point of defenders is that monsters usually need an additional incentive to go after high defense targets instead of low defense ones. A warlock's defenses and punishment powers help to make sure that other people get attacked instead. Not exactly the most helpful strategy for the group. "What's your main ability?" "I deflect damage to more vulnerable targets!"

Sorcerers also get AC from their secondary stat AND have an additional incentive to raise it over warlocks since it determines their damage. So a sorcerer is probably interested in putting more points there than a warlock.

Sorcerers, while lacking the fey pact boon, do have some teleport encounter powers that often allow out of turn movement (like Switch/Narrow Escape. Or options to improve their defenses like Sudden Scales.

They also have resistances, both via class feature and utility powers. Paragon paths offer some improvement there - Demonskin Adept can change his resistance to whatever suits the encounter, Arcane Wellspring resists two elements at once, Dragonsoul gets a bigger resistance and other defensive benefits.

The Dragon at will also provides a punishment for hitting the sorcerer.

While sorcerers don't have the same defense a warlock does, they're not exactly defenseless.

Also, the ability to reduce enemy resistances is a pretty big advantage for the sorcerer IMO.