MtG, D&D and Me TITLE NAME EDIT-The thread where Joe apparently offends everyone

[joethelawyer]

Respectfully, Joe, much of the verbiage may have been about you, but you seem to forget that the end of a piece, the last things an audience reads, can largely set the message. You said:



That, right there, is where you set it up as generalization to a large number of older gamers, not just yourself. You continue, and it gets worse...



You also set up what looks a lot like value judgment. "We" have the knowledge and maturity, immersion, and imaginations that run free, creativity unleashed. And the unspoken contrast is that "they" don't play the same way you do, so obviously "they" do not have any of those things.

Basically, Joe, the number of uncomplimentary things you implied about folks who don't share your tastes is simply staggering. Your denials are kind of belied by those two paragraphs. If this wasn't what you intended to say, you ought to address why those paragraphs were there.

Well ain't that a kick in the head. I re-read it a couple times and I see your point, and I see that you're right. I basically ended by saying (by implication like you said, but still it's saying it nonetheless) that people who play rules heavy games have no imagination. Quite an arrogant thing to say. And not true--a person's imagination has nothing to do with the style of game people play. My apologies to all who I offended by that. In trying to express some ideas as to why people like certain types of games, based on influences, I slammed those people who played those games as being not as good or imaginative as me. That's not right. People enjoy things for different reasons, which should not be considered and is truly not a negative reflection on them in other ways.

I shouldn't project how I feel about a certain style of RPG or game in general onto those who play that game as if I am better than they are in any way. My preferences as to the type of game I play are no better than anyone else's, and I'm sorry I basically said that it was.

Now I see why there were so many offended people posting responses. Here I was thinking it got views because of the sheer brilliance of the post.

Sorry again guys. Maybe I'll keep this sort of post to blogs for now on.

Then again, maybe I should keep doing it here. You guys help keep me humble.

 

[pawsplay]

When I was nine years old, I drew up a hundred room dungeon, then filled it with entirely random contents, just for kicks. I always viewed D&D as a set of tools for making things, like a strange machine that produced stories and worlds and characters instead of clay pots or lathed wood or whatever. "Make-believe" is something I left behind a long time ago, and I will candidly admit that I a prejudiced against a lot of play-by-post because of its resemblance to that medium. By 13, I was already interested in RPG design, writing my first novel, video game design, and other creative pursuits.

These days, I found myself disdaining large piles of rules, but anything that would qualify as truly rules-lite tends to leave me cold unless it has some very strong, interesting tropes. I cannot begin to fit myself into the narrative you spun in the OP, joe.

 

[jmucchiello]

You see, I never understood the attraction of the whole card game thing.
<snip>
I was never a gamer, in that I never liked to play games like card games, board games, checkers, chess, or anything like that. I still don’t.

If you are aware of your innate lack of interest in gaming, why does it surprise you that you don't understand the appeal of yet another game? Why even bring it up? You don't understand the appeal of games with rules that you play strictly within and that do not engage the imagination. You know this about yourself.

Do you realize that the historical wargamers in the 80s had (and still have) the same problem you have? They use to go to the hobby store to find the latest wargame involving real battles from Earth's history. And then these upstart role-players came along and shoved aside their miniatures battles for books on imaginary places. People who use to flock to their hobby were being diverted away from real wargaming for this dungeon crawling crap. Who could find that interesting?

How hard is it to find 15mm minis of Napolean's France today? They've been subplanted by Warhammer minis with their ridiculous dwarves and elves. Can't find store stocked with a decent jeep for recreating Rommel's Sahara, either I bet.

Of course the ultimate irony here is you say you a student of history. And here you are repeating the past.

 

[Xyxox]

I'm 46.

I started playing D&D in '77 with a white box that had three little brown books and a sheet of tables.

After seeing the game evolve over the past 32 years, all I can say is it's all good.

 

[FireLance]

So the hobby can either be dying or infested with angsty teenagers? Now that's a grognard's "pick your posion" situation if I ever saw one

Let he who has never been an angsty teenager cast the first stone.

 

[Bumbles]

Then again, maybe I should keep doing it here. You guys help keep me humble.

Just count yourself lucky that you didn't get all your skin flayed off.

 

[Remathilis]

Let he who has never been an angsty teenager cast the first stone.

Since I was sent to this planet by my alien overlords after having been created fully-formed in a cloning lab...

::Thunk::

 

[WayneLigon]

I think that’s why I never understood the collectible card game thing. It is just a game, no different than chess or monopoly, in that they don’t allow the same level of escape that D&D does. While they share common mythological elements like dragons and demons, it isn’t fantasy. It’s just a game. Even my short-lived experience into the MMORPG world left me feeling the same way. There was no bigger picture, just endless killing and looting, with ever more things to loot and kill. No immersion, just addiction. I don’t enjoy playing games. Never did. I enjoy imagining.

All I have is my own anecdotal experience. I have about the same time in as you do. In my opinion, somewhat more than 50% of the people that play D&D play it as a slightly more complex form of boardgame, only lightly touching on the actual role-assumption aspects of it. It could be only about half, or it could be as high as 75%, but I feel confident with the 'more than 50%' statement. This is not a figure that has ever significantly changed, though; it was the same in 1977 as it is today.

Me, I 'grew up' in the hobby with a couple of really hard-core role-assumption GMs and a score or more of those who had middling-to-none levels of 'role playing' in their games. The role-assumption people were always fairly small because the more roleplaying-intensive a game is, the more work it is on the part of the player as well as the GM. The rest, the beer-and-pretzels crowd for whom gaming is simply an alternative way to unwind from a hard week and serve more as a means for friends to get together and grill some brats, will always outnumber them.

I wouldn't say that the rules complexity of games from yesterday vs those of today have anything to do with it. I've seen plenty - more than plenty - 1E games played out with the same sterile tactical consideration one sees in Go and I've seen Champions games where we never picked up dice but rather acted and reacted as if we were in a play rather than a game. The people you play with bring their own style to the table and I don't think the actual ruleset has a very significant influence over that playstyle. The ones that try to force a particular playstyle, though, tend to be the ones that sink to the bottom of the pile quicker than would ordinarily be the case.

 

[Woas]

Awww man, I would kill for a 'real' historical wargame like that!

If you are aware of your innate lack of interest in gaming, why does it surprise you that you don't understand the appeal of yet another game? Why even bring it up? You don't understand the appeal of games with rules that you play strictly within and that do not engage the imagination. You know this about yourself.

Do you realize that the historical wargamers in the 80s had (and still have) the same problem you have? They use to go to the hobby store to find the latest wargame involving real battles from Earth's history. And then these upstart role-players came along and shoved aside their miniatures battles for books on imaginary places. People who use to flock to their hobby were being diverted away from real wargaming for this dungeon crawling crap. Who could find that interesting?

How hard is it to find 15mm minis of Napolean's France today? They've been subplanted by Warhammer minis with their ridiculous dwarves and elves. Can't find store stocked with a decent jeep for recreating Rommel's Sahara, either I bet.

Of course the ultimate irony here is you say you a student of history. And here you are repeating the past.

 

[Hairfoot]

Lamenting D&D's demise is like lamenting the death of rock music; just because the Big Bopper gave way to the Rolling Stones which gave way to Sabbath, Motley Crue, and Korn doesn't mean Rock is dead, just different.

They also gave way to New Kids On The Block, Spice Girls, and the Pussycat Dolls.

You could say that an experienced gamer criticising the new D&D is like a crusty old rocker gurning at Tool for not being Led Zeppelin, but could also say that it's like an experienced muso panning manufactured pop bands for churning out shallow rubbish with short-term appeal.