Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)

[Mathew_Freeman]

There are obviously some men in this thread who don't perceive sexism in D&D, on EN World, or in society.

Out of curiosity, are there any women in this thread who don't perceive sexism in D&D, on EN World, or in society?

I would be really, really interested to hear about this.

 

[S'mon]

Suffice to say, as I noted earlier, that we definitely have very different positions about the existence, effects, and need (or, according to you, lack of need) for redress of sexism in society.

Some of us don't subscribe to Critical Theory/Political Correctness/Frankfurt School Marxism or even feminism - doesn't mean we don't want female players to enjoy our games.

 

[S'mon]

ADoes anyone honestly think D&D would lose sales if it showed a woman in actual armor instead of in a chain mail bikini?

What is this, 1979? Where have you been the last 30 years?

 

[S'mon]

simply having a high position does not make you more qualified or intelligent then others.

That would equally apply to Pinker's enemies.

For the record, I'm on the Pinker side of this debate, I don't think the Boas/Stephen Jay Gould side of the human nature vs nurture debate have any interest in the empirical evidence.

I also think this debate is clearly political and not appropriate for ENW.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So you're saying that being sensitive to sexism, racism et al is a bad thing?

No, just that Californians being stereotyped as being sensitive to sexism, racism, et al is discriminatory to Californians who are insensitive to such things!

Pity the poor Chula Vista Klansman! Or the Mendocino Misogynist!

 

[Hussar]

Because men aren't buying what FATAL is selling. I mean really, how many men want to spend their evening sitting around rolling and cross referencing a chart to find out areola size.

I respect a person's right to create what they want, as long as they respect my right to be completely creeped out by it and and use it as an example of the worst game ever created.

Y'know, I REALLY have to buy this game sometime, just to read it. Good grief, i've never seen it, but, man, does reading things like this make me want to. Kinda like wanting to see burning cars on the side of the road.

I think the most compelling argument is the sputtering feminist movement in Western society. I've read a number of articles on the subject, of this new wave of feminists, and how frankly, they're struggling for an identity. And why is that? Basically, its because the prior wave of feminists got what they wanted. There's nothing else left to go after that's not nitpicking, or even worse, payback for past wrongs or something.

Reminds me of a Simpsons episode where there is a Gay Pride parade where one of the marchers jumps in front of Homer and says something to the effect of "I'm gay and I'm here!" and Homer replies, "Yeah, so? You've been here for years. Ok, you're here!" Always made me chuckle.

 

[Ycore Rixle]

That would equally apply to Pinker's enemies.

For the record, I'm on the Pinker side of this debate, I don't think the Boas/Stephen Jay Gould side of the human nature vs nurture debate have any interest in the empirical evidence.

I also think this debate is clearly political and not appropriate for ENW.

Yeah. I'm surprised the mods have let it go on so long. But as long as it's here, I feel compelled to reply, as if my silence would imply assent. Or maybe I'm just the guy in the XKCD strip.

BTW, Professor Cirno, what you posted about Larry Summers is incorrect. He did not say what you said he did. Although I grant you that the difference, while tremendously important, is apparently very hard for some people to see (or perhaps to acknowledge).

 

[Umbran]

And yet FATAL is little more then stereotypes and tropes that are consistant with what is thought of being "what a guy wants" as was stated by others in this thread - lots of math, lots of crunch, lots of objectification of women. My point is that they're just that - false stereotypes. If it was truly neccisary to market the game to "guys" in that fashion, then FATAL should be a best seller.

Um, no. That's logic of, "since a little bit is good, a lot must be better" - if I like a scoop of ice cream, then I must really want to buy a 17-scoop mega-sundae! It sounds logical, but does not regularly hold up in the real world. A small amount of something may be pleasing, while a larger amount of it makes us want to throw up.

Especially when many would say there's a qualitative difference between the sexism of chainmail-bikini art, and some of the really misogynistic stuff in FATAL. Thus, the analogy fails.

Does anyone honestly think D&D would lose sales if it showed a woman in actual armor instead of in a chain mail bikini?

Does anyone here honestly have the expertise in marketing and the demographic data on D&D sales to be able to make a well-informed judgment on that?

 

[Rel]

I've been reading this thread for days and done some lengthy soul searching and introspection. I've come to the conclusion that I think of the majority of females as basically inferior to me.

But then I think of the majority of everybody as basically inferior to me. So I must be the very model of egalitarianism!

Yay!

I'm awesome.

 

[Lwaxy]

How much perceptions of what the game is "about" now depend on such commercial products is something to take into account....

The widespread use of someone else's extensively detailed "world" as a setting introduces a cumulative effect of details on the impression one gets...

Indeed.

We've always adapted the worlds we played in to a certain degree as to minimize problems, and I usually ask my players which, if any, gender or racial unbalanced settings they want to keep. Or if they'd like to turn things the other way round. A few times they did want to turn it around, which didn't change game play at all but made the worlds more fascinating. The only down point is that you can't use all official material as it is, but it isn't hard to adapt either.

I found that very often, players of both genders care little about sexism in a game setting. They just want to play. And there are always ways to go around it in-game.