4E, as an anti-4E guy ...

[Storminator]

Respectfully I will disagree. Minis have always been a part of the D&D experience, from day one. In many cases it is assumed they are used, they are often mentioned in every edition, and narrative combat using miniatures as a visual has been encouraged since they sold woodies out of the backs of their cars.

We played 1e for almost 10 years. In all that time, we had exactly one combat that didn't involve minis. It went like this:

Me: I assassinate the druid.
DM (reaching for the minis...): Roll! he's level 7!
Me: He's dead! I take his stuff!

Had the one opponent not died in the pre-battle round, we'd have broken out the minis. To me, saying "4e forces one to use minis" is like saying "4e forces you to breathe while playing."

PS

 

[thecasualoblivion]

In no edition prior to 3.0 are minis assumed, or even strongly encouraged. I challenge you to back up that claim. Indeed, prior to 3e, you'd be hard pressed to find a play example that uses minis outside of Battlesystem. The closest you might come is a mention of devising marching orders, possibly by using minis. Nowhere is there anything close to an assumption of their use.

Indeed, it is noteworthy that Mr. Gygax didn't use them in his games.



"I think it is pretty safe to say the 4e rules were designed with minis use in mind. With effort you can play with out but them but it does require a fair amount of DM hand waiving and/or behind the screen position tracking to make area effects work. This was a rules decision influenced by both a style of play that had come out of 3e and the business model that style of play created. WoTC didn't invent playing D&D with maps and minis but we certainly folded it more into the core that TSR had done."

And that's not me saying it, that's The Rouse (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4828135-post35.html).

BTW, loving 4e for what it is doesn't require believing that all editions of D&D were always what the current one is.


RC

OD&D assumed the reader was familiar with Chainmail and tabletop wargaming. One can easily assume minis were encouraged just from that. The game originally was an adaption of tabletop wargaming, which uses minis. 1E set out distances, areas and movement in inches, which heavily assumes the use of minis. 2E I would say moved the game further away from minis than any other edition, until the players/DM option books came out and put in minis skirmish rules that went beyond what 3E did with them.

 

[Mallus]

In no edition prior to 3.0 are minis assumed, or even strongly encouraged.

And yet so many of them were sold and purchased (and painted, and used, and so on...).

Indeed, it is noteworthy that Mr. Gygax didn't use them in his games.

I think its more noteworthy that many gamers I know personally have a collection of miniatures that they used for D&D. Prior to 3e. They outnumber Mr. Gygax many-to-one.

"I think it is pretty safe to say the 4e rules were designed with minis use in mind".

This is fair to say.

BTW, loving 4e for what it is doesn't require believing that all editions of D&D were always what the current one is.

This has nothing to do with 4e. I'm just posting my experience with the game. I've found the deciding factor on mini use was 'does someone have them?'.

 

[Obryn]

FWIW, I think three things are pretty clear...

(1) You can play any edition of D&D with or without miniatures, but...
(2) Minis bring more to the table for the 3.5 and 4e rules sets than they do for 1e/2e/RC/BX/BECMI. (They also bring a lot to 3.0, but 3.0 is less grid-dependent than 3.5.)
(3) 3.5 and 4e's business models are clearly tied into miniature sales.

-O

 

[Rechan]

(3) 3.5 and 4e's business models are clearly tied into miniature sales.

Haha, sucks for them. I use glass beads and pennies and little colored bunnies.

 

[Raven Crowking]

OD&D assumed the reader was familiar with Chainmail and tabletop wargaming. One can easily assume minis were encouraged just from that.

One could, but it would be an incorrect assumption.

OD&D assumes that one is familiar with the conventions of tabletop wargaming, which which was a much larger hobby at the time. That is all.

And yet so many of them were sold and purchased (and painted, and used, and so on...).

Sure. I bought minis during my 1e days too. Mostly because I liked them; I seldom actually used them in play (apart from marching orders). Too darned heavy to carry a box of lead to a game. And, of course, the rules were not written to require them, so using minis often slowed down (rather than enhanced) the pace of the game.

(Plastic minis are a real boon for the person carrying them to a game, btw.)

It is unfortunate that WotC's pre-3e market research is either no longer available, or beyond my Google-fu to locate, or you could see exactly what % of the gaming population bought minis, and exactly how much more they tended to spend on gaming overall. From my recollection, the majority by a wide margin did not use minis, but those who did spent a great deal more on gaming.

From there, it becomes a really obvious business move to push minis in the game, and it should come as no surprise that 4e pushes minis more than 3.5, and that 3.5 pushes minis more than 3, which in turn pushes minis more than any games prior to it (excepting, of course, actual minis games, like Battlesystem).


RC

 

[Halivar]

Haha, sucks for them. I use glass beads and pennies and little colored bunnies.

Sounds like quite a surrealistic game setting.

 

[Rechan]

Sounds like quite a surrealistic game setting.

You don't know the half of it; one guy I game with brings bullet casings and lug nuts for minis.

 

[Raven Crowking]

FWIW, I think three things are pretty clear...

(1) You can play any edition of D&D with or without miniatures, but...
(2) Minis bring more to the table for the 3.5 and 4e rules sets than they do for 1e/2e/RC/BX/BECMI. (They also bring a lot to 3.0, but 3.0 is less grid-dependent than 3.5.)
(3) 3.5 and 4e's business models are clearly tied into miniature sales.

-O

For what it's worth, I agree with you completely on this.

I would also add, from WotC's market research, tying the game into minis is a pretty sound fiscal move AFAICT.

 

[Mallus]

Too darned heavy to carry a box of lead to a game.

Fortunately we used to game at my friends house. His dad was a long-time collector of all things RPG, including minis. His basement was a cluttered treasure trove of nerdery!

From there, it becomes a really obvious business move to push minis in the game, and it should come as no surprise that 4e pushes minis more than 3.5, and that 3.5 pushes minis more than 3, which in turn pushes minis more than any games prior to it (excepting, of course, actual minis games, like Battlesystem).

Their business model does require that people keep buying, and the plastic minis sold well, right?

But you don't need minis in 4e. You need a grid map and tokens of some sort (oh, and condition markers would help a lot, too).