Mary Sue- Not sure I understand

[fanboy2000]

All good links.

Mary Sue comes from fan fiction, specifically, Star Trek fan fiction. (It originated there, but it obviously didn't stop there.) The prototypical Mary Sue is beautiful, good at everything (fights better than a klingon, more knowledgeable in physics than Spock, can fix a warp drive better than Scotty, etc) and is often the daughter of Kirk or some other main cast member. Such a character is typically assumed to be a stand-in for the author. Either that's how the author sees himself or herself, or the author wishes he or she were like that.

It doesn't take much generalize that description to other areas of fiction.

The label is one of derision and, IIRC, it comes from a pice of fiction where a character was actually named Mary Sue. Mary Sue was supposed to lampoon the "good at everything and generally awesome" stereotypical character popular in Star Trek fan fiction at the time.

 

[fanboy2000]

Maybe give some examples of what you deem are mary sues and why.

The problem with giving examples is that Mary Sues are supposed to be characters that, for the most part, are only of interest to the author. Because the Mary Sue character is so powerful, her adventures are uninteresting and the stories are boring. This doesn't preclude Mary Sues from existing in professional, published, writing, but it really limits them.

Because the term is pejorative and not well-defined a lot of characters people don't like or find uninteresting get the label. I think, however, you have it right to equate Mary Sue with DM PC. A poorly run DM PC would fall into the "good at everything, generally awesome" stereotype Mary Sue was meant to lampoon.

I think one of the best explanations of Mary Sue comes from The (Original) Mary Sue Litmus Test. That was a test designed to see if the original character you created in a Gargoyals Fanfic was a Mary Sue or not. Good stuff. Later, some generalized it, also a good test. You will notice that the first question on both tests is "is the character named after you?"

 

[kenmarable]

I've also heard Robert Langdon in Dan Brown's novels referred to that way as well. Smarter than everyone, loved by women despite being so brainy, etc. Although admittedly I haven't read the books largely because people told me that it really felt like Dan Brown fantasized being really awesome and then made that into a couple novels. Not exactly high praise.

 

[pawsplay]

A proper Mary Sue runs rougshod over established setting elements with their awesomeness. A Mary Sue would fight the Dread Pirate Roberts and win, precisely because he is defined as the pinnacle of ability in The Princess Bride. I think of a Mary Sue as having these crucial components:

1. Disrespect for the source - Everything fanfic writers know they should not do with their characters, Mary Sue does. If a character is the only person who can do X, Mary Sue is the other person who can do X (and probably better). If Mary Sue can't out-awesome someone, they sleep with them and gain their undying love.

2. Narcissism - Mary Sue is awesome for the sake of awesomeness. In fact, it's clear their activities involve a sort of acting out of the writer. This goes beyond wish fulfillment into the realm of ego defensiveness through fantasy. Obviously, this has has to be inferred, but the idea is that with a Mary Sue, the evidence is ample.

3. Lack of meanginful challenge - Mary Sue is supposed to be a conqueror of all challenges, but in fact is so competent, lucky, and lovable that they face few credible struggles. As a result, the story is completely boring. If you took Superman's powers and gave them to Batman, and took away his weaknesses to magic and kryptonite, it would be hard to pinpoint what the resulting hero would do with his time that didn't resemble filing taxes for a single salaried worker in terms of challenge and interest.

 

[AllisterH]

A Mary Sue can have flaws but they are "too good" flaws such as "They care too much" or "they'll never surrender" etc.

 

[Twowolves]

Luckily, a lot fewer people are falling for that misinformation than some years back. Back in reality, Elminster isn't intended to be a protagonist of any kind, the sex thing simply isn't true by the sources (Doug & co. have apparently been fooled by the same randy old goat act that misleads folk in Faerûn), and the idea that he's some kind of projection of Ed more than the thousands of other characters he's created, or is his favourite character, or anything like that is pure internet Chinese whispers based on a marketing strategy TSR insisted on for a while.

Riiiiiight.

I didn't read very many Forgotten Realms novels set in the Dalelands, but one of the one or two I did read had Elminster bedding the Symbul. He was such a Mary Sue that it completely turned me off of that part of the setting for good.

 

[Oni]

Luckily, a lot fewer people are falling for that misinformation than some years back. Back in reality, Elminster isn't intended to be a protagonist of any kind, the sex thing simply isn't true by the sources (Doug & co. have apparently been fooled by the same randy old goat act that misleads folk in Faerûn), and the idea that he's some kind of projection of Ed more than the thousands of other characters he's created, or is his favourite character, or anything like that is pure internet Chinese whispers based on a marketing strategy TSR insisted on for a while.

I'll just say this. I like the Realms, but reading Making of a Mage has ensured I will never read another Ed Greenwood book ever again.

 

[roguerouge]

Basically, Mary Sues extend the idea that one should write from one's own experience and the concept that many characters have parts of the author in them. Many legitimate fictions have author figures in them. It's a Mary Sue when we disapprove with the effect that such a figure has on the overall work.

 

[Remathilis]

I've also heard Robert Langdon in Dan Brown's novels referred to that way as well. Smarter than everyone, loved by women despite being so brainy, etc. Although admittedly I haven't read the books largely because people told me that it really felt like Dan Brown fantasized being really awesome and then made that into a couple novels. Not exactly high praise.

See, I was under the impression that a true Mary Sue can't be the protagonist of his own story; A Mary Sue is someone who either one-ups the main character OR is overall better than an ensemble cast. For example; Conan would never be a Mary Sue because HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE THAT AWESOME! Now, if I introduced a Barbarian-chieftain into Conan mythos who was a better fighter, lover, tactician,and leader than Conan, HE'D be the Mary Sue, since Conan's supposed to be the hero.

There is also a good argument whether or not an author can "Mary Sue" his own work; this mostly stems from Harry Potter discussions on whether Hermione is a Mary Sue for JKR. Some say yes because she's clearly better at EVERYTHING than Harry is, while others say she's supposed to be better to compensate for Ron being rather inept (and to make Harry seem grounded/normal by comparison). It is widely accepted that OTHER authors can certainly Mary Sue a work, even if it IS cannon (Mara Jade).

 

[Faraer]

I didn't read very many Forgotten Realms novels set in the Dalelands, but one of the one or two I did read had Elminster bedding the Symbul. He was such a Mary Sue that it completely turned me off of that part of the setting for good.

With whom he's in a monogamous relationship for the decades of the Realms' published 'present'.

What's the sarcasm for? You can easily verify everything I wrote if you care to look.