Swit Charge Question

[Zinovia]

When I've seen it in play (during the delves at GenCon for example) the barbarian was allowed to take a free action to Swift Charge another opponent after felling the first, whether or not he'd charged that round. It's a free action, and they can be taken at any time, even on someone else's turn. So technically you could take the swift charge at the beginning of the next turn in the initiative order.

How about a case where the barbarian has a weapon that deals ongoing damage to an opponent. He hits the foe, inflicts the ongoing damage, and his turn ends. Later, at the start of the foe's turn, he takes the ongoing damage and falls to 0 hp. Would that trigger the Swift Charge, even though it's someone else's turn? Again, I would say yes. It's a free action, so it can be taken at any time.

I know there has been some debate about whether free actions could be used after a charge, but I see no reason why not. It's the same as if you acted at the start of the next turn in the initiative. The Swift Charge class feature is only once per encounter, so it's not like the barbarian can use this *every* time they take down an opponent.

 

[Skallgrim]

Can't free actions be taken outside your turn, though? So, the charge ends your turn and you can still take a free action.

Right. This is part of the debate. The barbarian Swift Charge is a Triggered Free Action. There's multiple rules interactions that are, at best, not completely clear:

After a charge, your turn ends immediately and you can take no more actions without an action point.

Free Actions can be taken at any time, even during another character's turn.

A Triggered Free Action can generally always be used on someone else's turn, simply because the Trigger itself can occur on someone else's turn.


Many people have argued, in good faith, that since your turn ENDS after the charge, you cannot take any more actions, including free actions. This is entirely consistent with at least some of the rules.

Other people point out the 'exception' to this rule in Free Actions, which can be taken at any time, including on other people's turns.

It simply isn't clear enough to definitively state that the specific rule for charges over-rides a general rule on Free Actions, or that the specific rule for Free Actions over-rides a general prohibition of actions after a Charge.

FWIW, since Swift Charge CAN trigger on opportunity attacks and other attacks the barbarian takes outside his own turn, I myself would allow it to occur after his charge. I'm not arguing that position is the RAW correct one, but given that RAW, he would be able to kill a monster on an OA, and then charge another one and attack it (all on someone else's turn), I don't see it as unbalancing to allow him to kill one enemy and charge another on his OWN turn.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

When I've seen it in play (during the delves at GenCon for example) the barbarian was allowed to take a free action to Swift Charge another opponent after felling the first, whether or not he'd charged that round. It's a free action, and they can be taken at any time, even on someone else's turn. So technically you could take the swift charge at the beginning of the next turn in the initiative order.

How about a case where the barbarian has a weapon that deals ongoing damage to an opponent. He hits the foe, inflicts the ongoing damage, and his turn ends. Later, at the start of the foe's turn, he takes the ongoing damage and falls to 0 hp. Would that trigger the Swift Charge, even though it's someone else's turn? Again, I would say yes. It's a free action, so it can be taken at any time.

I know there has been some debate about whether free actions could be used after a charge, but I see no reason why not. It's the same as if you acted at the start of the next turn in the initiative. The Swift Charge class feature is only once per encounter, so it's not like the barbarian can use this *every* time they take down an opponent.

Really? You consider ongoing damage to fulfill the trigger "Your attack reduces an enemy to 0 hit points"? Ok, well then what about killing an opponent, waiting 2 rounds, and then triggering the action? If you arent going to place a limit between the trigger and the event then why not? What about waiting until the next combat? Maybe that is a bit too much for you, but then what do you base it off of? Where do you draw the line? After the creature takes an action? After one round?

Maybe we can all end this silliness right here:

Trigger: Powers that are immediate actions (interrupts or reactions) or opportunity actions have a trigger, which defines when you’re allowed to use the power. Some powers that are free actions, or that require no action to use, have a trigger as well.

I can clearly see a ruling that says that a swift charge is triggered and acted upon before the triggering attack is finished, just like an Elven Reroll during a Twin Strike, but trying to rule that you can take the action on the next persons turn, or any time after that is clearly against the rule quoted above and common sense.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

My half-orc barbarian is a killing machine. First he uses Battle Charge to get +4 to his defenses to defend against AO. Then he does a nice 3d12+5 and a 1d6 followed by a Furious Assault racial 1d12+5. This usually kills the opponent. Swift charge and another 1d12+5 roll. Nice damage for a lvl2-3 barb

If the barbarian also crits he'll get another additional attack. So he kills fast. Even boss fights are too easy because of that. The barbarian either kills or nearly kills the boss in the first round. They are way powerfull

Okay, I'm a bit confused.

First, I don't believe Furious Assault gives you any bonuses above the 1d12. You don't add static bonuses to Sneak Attack or Hunter's Quarry or Promise of Storm (Genasi), and it seems to be in that category.

Second, what is Battle Charge? I suspect you mean Combat Sprint (Barbarian Utility 2), which gives +4 bonus to defenses against OAs during a move. That bonus doesn't carry over to additional actions, so I'm not sure why it's relevant anyway.

Third, I don't understand the attacks you describe. Is the "3d12+5 and a 1d6" from a single attack? All I can think of is you mean "3d12+5 from Avalanche Strike", action point, "1d12+5+1d6 from Howling Strike".

Fourth, at least in the campaign I have the most time in, bosses have well over 100 hp, and probably closing in on 200. (We are at level 7) The single-target damage you describe above would not even bloody a 100 hp boss, and that's only if you HIT, which you will not always do.

Note: I'm not criticizing -- I just want to figure out if I'm missing something. I am about to start a Barbarian myself, and I don't want to go in with misconceptions.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Many people have argued, in good faith, that since your turn ENDS after the charge, you cannot take any more actions, including free actions. This is entirely consistent with at least some of the rules.

Those people are then only consistent if they likewise rule that you can't, say, talk after taking the Charge action.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Those people are then only consistent if they likewise rule that you can't, say, talk after taking the Charge action.

...during the rest of your turn.

 

[Zinovia]

I haven't played with a barbarian outside of RPGA events, and don't have any in either of my current groups, so I'm not entirely familiar with all the details of how they work. I have seen them in play during events, and when I did, swift charge was allowed following a charge attack that reduced an enemy to 0 hp. I would also allow it. Whether the attack occurred as a triggered action on your own turn or as a free action on a successive turn doesn't matter to me. It's arguing semantics. The point is that I would allow the swift charge to be used on the same turn as a charge.

As for the item triggering it, looking at the power description, I agree with you that the wording there does specify that the enemy must be reduced to 0 hp by an attack you made, so my interpretation was incorrect. The power would not trigger from ongoing damage. Ongoing damage may have resulted from your attack, but it doesn't quite fulfill the requirement "Your attack reduces an enemy to 0 hp."

 

[Xeterog]

note that a charge does not end your turn...you just can't take any more actions that turn (unless you spend an Action point--which is a free action)

I am of the opinion that free actions, tho they are actions, can be taken at any time (except during the Start of your turn phase and the end of your turn phase). I think the actions you cannot take after a charge are Standard Actions, Move Actions, and Minor Actions.

 

[NaturalZero]

I can clearly see a ruling that says that a swift charge is triggered and acted upon before the triggering attack is finished, just like an Elven Reroll during a Twin Strike...

Its not same because the trigger for Elven Reroll occurs when you roll an attack, which occurs before the attack is resolved, while Swift Charge is triggered when the enemy is reduced to 0, which occurs after the attack is resolved.

...but trying to rule that you can take the action on the next persons turn, or any time after that is clearly against the rule quoted above and common sense.

Nothing in the text you quoted says you can't take triggered action on the following turn if the action was triggered at the very end of the previous turn. In fact, if you look at the text for both triggered actions and "taking your turn", it seems that you can perform a triggered action immediately after your turn.

The end of your turn always takes place, even if you're unconscious, and takes no time in the game world.

You charge, resolve the attack, the end of your turn comes up and then you immediately make a Swift Charge as a free action at the beginning of the next turn. Taking the action at the beginning of the following turn is still immediately after the triggering action.

 

[Skallgrim]

And, as I was trying to point out, this is an ongoing debate. No matter how vociferously you argue one side, someone else is going to argue the other side. No matter how continuously you point out that their position is obviously inconsistent and wrong, they are going to level the same claim against you.

Until WOTC issues a faq or errata on this issue, there is going to be someone telling you that RAW clearly proves you wrong and them right.

That is why my position on this was to assume that both sides were arguing in good faith, and not supporting a position that they knew to be false. I just, myself, would allow the Swift Charge to be used after a Charge, simply because it doesn't seem any more powerful to be allowed two Charge attacks in your own turn than it does to be allowed an Opportunity Attack or Immediate Interrupt/Reaction attack and a charge in someone else's turn. In both cases, two attacks occur at a time when only one attack can normally be made. That's not an argument from RAW.

I think, from RAW, the answer isn't crystal clear. If someone can present some objective evidence that every single one of the people arguing the "wrong side" of RAW is actually lying, and knows their argument to be false, then I think that you have to accept that at least some of the "wrong people" are genuinely confused by the way that the rules are written. There's just no need to keep hammering away at the same debate in each thread.

This person was a self-described 'noob'. I think it would have been charitable to simply acknowledge that this situation (Swift Charge after a Charge) is a 'debated' issue, and perhaps offer your own perspective on the question. I don't think his question was an invitation to indoctrinate him into your own 'side' of the argument.