Understanding Alignment

(Quote by me) I have never seen a good description of lawful vs chaotic alignments. Literally never. Not even once. (/Quote)

(Quote by Bullgrit) This is sort of like saying, "I have never seen a good description of breast plate armor." The definition is right in the book. You may not think of breast plate armor as having leather pieces and padding, but the book says it has such. Your idea of what a breast plate is doesn't change what D&D breast plate armor is.

The definitive description for lawful vs. chaotic alignments is right in the book:

There's a description there, but I think you missed out the word good. The book does not have a good description. How does a lawful evil character qualify as trustworthy or honorable? Can I assume they're subservient to the authority of their organized crime group, since they're probably not subservient to the law? (Murder is murder in most cultures.)

My overall point is, the rule books state directly and clearly what the various D&D alignments mean.

And my point is that it doesn't.

I had a physics teacher in high school who tried to describe the difficulty in teaching magnetism. He said there were three types of learners: visual, auditory and manipulative. It was easy to show diagrams on the mechanics of magnetism, it was easy to give a lecture that students could listen to, but the last group he had a hard time teaching. (You don't learn the nitty gritty about domains by playing with magnets either.)

The book doesn't speak to all people. The massive number of alignment threads speaks to that.
 
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I'd prefer alignment to be an after-the-fact statistic. Nobody is born with one. What one does determines where one begins to lean. What one becomes.

I'm with Jonsy on this one. Behavior creates "alignment." Not the other way around. The other way around alignment acts as a guide, but most humans are far too subjective about far too many things for alignment to determine how they behave. You can trust what a man says about himself if ya like, and most men can say a lot of things about themselves, one way or another. Say they are this way or that. But watch how they act. Behavior isn't something you can accurately describe or predict as a concept. It's something people display in a crisis. When theory rightfully means nothing much worth thinking about.

Behavior tells you how your align yourself when it counts. Talk and a concept only tells ya how you hope you'll behave all other things being equal. Action is what actually points the needle of the compass far as I'm concerned. A pre-conceived Alignment doesn't really point to true north, just painted north on the face of the compass.


As a real life example, I'll sorta expound upon what CF said:

5. This gets especially bad when DMs want to include moral choice or shades of gray, and their players do not share identical moral beliefs. At least half of the threads with players claiming that their DM screwed over their paladin, or threads with a DM complaining that his paladin's player isn't living up to his code, are a result of the DM and the Player having different moral beliefs. It usually goes something like this: The DM puts forward a moral problem, like, will you kill the presently innocent goblin child who's prophecied to throw down civilization in a rain of blood? Or will you let him live, and fulfill his destiny? The DM is thinking that this will be difficult, because killing innocent goblin children is wrong, but letting the goblin child live will be worse in terms of consequences. But the player doesn't think about morality the same way the DM does. He kills the goblin child instantly, perhaps because he cares more about consequence than deontology, perhaps because he has a more intentions based morality, or perhaps because he views inaction as the same as action and believes that he would be equally culpable either way. The DM is outraged. The paladin committed an evil act! He must be punished! The rulebook says so!


Because of my occupations and interests a lot of people have always thought of me as a Law and Order guy. That's how they see me. But some of my buddies know for a fact that I don't give a tinker's wink about the law at all, if the law gets in the way of Justice. I'd sacrifice, without a moments hesitation, law on any half-sunny day to achieve real Justice. The law just isn't important to me unless it achieves Justice.

So although a lot of other people see me as a Law and Order guy (even people in my family), I've never ever thought of myself that way. I'm a Justice guy. If the law achieves Justice, I'm all for that. If it gets in the way of Justice, then to hell with the law. So others can see ya one way, and maybe from their point of view, with very good reason. But deep down inside you know you're another way, for at least as good a reason as anybody else has.

That to me is why game alignments are meaningless, even as a gaming concept. Everybody else has gotta see you exactly the same way you see yourself. How often is that likely to really happen, even as a fantastical concept?

Now if alignment is offered as a guide to think about how people wanna order the behavior of their characters, that's fine by me. Nothing wrong with guidelines in anything. Guidelines tend to be good for stimulating thought and new ideas. But as a description of how people are likely to react (ahead of time, much less always) well I think it's about to be as likely useful and efficient as somebody else thinking of me as a Lawman, and me seeing myself as an Agent of Justice. Yeah, denotatively they're maybe six a one and half dozen of another. But where it counts they're entirely different beasts of burden in my book.

Now, again, if somebody plays in a game where the world is structured so that everybody exactly agrees on what is good and evil, or law and chaos, or what constitutes true neutrality, then I reckon it don't matter much. But aside from fantasy worlds, how often is that likely to really happen? Come to think of it, even in fantasy worlds, how often is that likely to happen?

I'd bet that kinda world is rarer than gold wool and horsefeathers.
 

IME, the law/chaos axis caused more grief than the good/evil axis, generally from "is my internal code of conduct enough to make me lawful" folks.

I also recall that descriptions of the alignments were not consistent, either from edition to edition or even throughout the course of 3.X.

I recall that the 2nd edition PHB made Chaotic Neutral sound like "crazy" and Lawful Neutral sound like "anal retentive." Neutral, or course, "wanted balance." Third changed all three.
 

I have to assume you're just being silly, here.

Well, yes. But I think alignment is silly, so... ;)

(And he doesn't have an AC because he doesn't have armor or a shield -- "Your AC is equal to the following: 10 + armor bonus + shield bonus..." -- He doesn't have armor or shield.)/sarcasm

Umm, "+" does not mean the same thing as "and"; 10 + nothing + nothing = 10. Your analogy doesn't hold.

By your definition, those descriptions are *rules* -- so what alignment is a vicious, petty, cruel, sadistic, unloving, but powerless, person -- someone who doesn't have the opportunity to physically do anything to express the undoubted wickedness of his soul. Give him enough power, and he will use it to to abuse, oppress, and terrify -- he'll be clearly evil; but now, he's too weak and too fearful to do much of anything, besides small, petty things (he'll slip nasty stuff in your horse's feed, he'll deface your expensive coffer, he'll rat you out to your enemies just to see you get yours, and he'll generally act like the worst stereotype of a sniveling lawyer/bureaucrat/politician/slumlord). Is he not evil?
 


I like alignment as a descriptor of cosmic sides: the Law and Chaos of OD&D which came from Moorcock (I think.)

I don't like alignment as a personality or morality mechanic, because I think it fails to describe real people.
 

1E/2E/3E Alignment was very interesting in theory, but fell down in practice. Lawful Stupid, Chaotic Stupid, alignment attached to mechanics, ect.

What?

Alignment attached to mechanics being a problem I can see, but all the rest of those are PLAYER PROBLEMS.

"Hey Chiruno, my player keeps making a gnome who does nothing but fart on other players and giggles about how it's totally in character. This game must be horrible!"

"OR MAYBE YOUR PLAYER SUCKS."
 

Lawful: Tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Honorable, trustworthy, obedient to authority, and reliable.
To tell the truth? Which truth? If a mother steals food for her children from another mother whose children also need the food, is she: A) a thief who preys upon the weak, or B) a good person forced to extreme measures? Whose truth? The other mother can truthfully testify that she is a thief. Her children can truthfully testify that she is a good person. She can herself truthfully testify that her intentions were good. The law can side with her (she had to help her own children, it would have been unlawful to allow them to starve), or against her (she stole food from children who are now starving). Whose law? If the criminal law states that thieves lose an arm, and the constitutional law states that her children have a right not to starve, do you chop off the mothers arm or not? Lawful isn't a clear term, and neither is truth. Perspective matters, always.

Keep their word? Do you seriously believe that only lawful people can keep their word?

Respect authority? What if the authority in question is a crazy mad king who orders you to murder a family just because? And which respect are we talking about here? "I respect your decisions, but will not honor them as they go against the law."? "I respect your decisions, and will honor them as they are the law."? "I respect you as a person, but will not do as you say."? "I respect your power to make decisions, and will do as you say."?

Honor tradition? Which tradition? If the tradition in your family is to steal horses and the tradition in your land is to remove the tongues of horse thieves? Do you steal the horse and then remove your own tongue? And what if they are both against the law?

Judge those who fall short of their duties? How is that not ambiguous in the extreme? How can you decide what the measure of someones duty is? Which duty? The duty of being a good human? The mother has the duty not to steal, and the duty to steal for her children. The duty of being a law abiding citizen? Do you let your children starve and fail your duty to protect them? Do you steal and fail your duty to follow the letter of that particular law?

Good: Protect innocent life. Altruistic, respect life, and have concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Innocent of what? Which type of innocence? If your children steal food for themselves without knowledge of the law, and the law lacks a term for innocence by ignorance, are they or aren't they?

Altruistic? So I'm a good person if I increase the well being of a poor man who kills people, by sacrificing my own well being? What if I donate money to a "get eye surgery for the blind pedophile" campaign?

Respect life? Whose life? All of it, or just "good life"? Respect how? What does that even mean?

Concern for the dignity of sentient beings? I am not going to touch that one at all as it gets into the whole pro-life/pro-choice mess. We won't solve that here, if anywhere.

If one can't definitively define what is lawful good, how could one ever hope to define chaotic neutral?
 
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I feel the need to point out that I've never once in any game I've ever even heard of had a horse thief claim he was lawful good because it was his family tradition.

I've found quite a few of these "NO SEE ALIGNMENT IS FLAAAAAAAAAWED" arguments to run the same gamut of "Uh, has this ever actually happened in game?"
 

I feel the need to point out that I've never once in any game I've ever even heard of had a horse thief claim he was lawful good because it was his family tradition.
So everything that would ever happen in a game has already happened in yours? Heh. :p

I've found quite a few of these "NO SEE ALIGNMENT IS FLAAAAAAAAAWED" arguments to run the same gamut of "Uh, has this ever actually happened in game?"
Yes, it has. How can you roleplay alignment conflicts, without actually having alignment conflicts? So we've had them. A lot.
 

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