attacking without attacking
- Thread starter Flipguarder
- Start date
ZzarkLinux
First Post
That's also works. Maybe the Swordmage needs an adrenaline rush, or has be in "the-zone".
By this logic, couldn't we use "Second Wind" outside of combat to get a 6-second +2 all defenses? Do the rules already allow this ???
I don't think a encounter-based teleport would be too bad.
(The warlock has Shadow-Walk as lvl 2 utility spell)
It would require a short-rest to use multiple times.
I guess it could be campaign-dependant, but when I think of campaigns I usually plan for possible Flight / Teleport / etc...
DracoSuave
First Post
That's also works. Maybe the Swordmage needs an adrenaline rush, or has be in "the-zone".
By this logic, couldn't we use "Second Wind" outside of combat to get a 6-second +2 all defenses? Do the rules already allow this ???
You could use Second Wind outside of an encounter, tho there is no reason to: If your defenses are in any way important, you're in an encounter.
This is hardly something a Swordmage lacks at all--There's encounter teleport powers at every level in Utility powers, they have a teleport-based -class-feature-... they -hardly- need to use attacks to teleport. So the player can't exactly say 'Well, I didn't have any options.'
Clearly, they do.
It is, clearly, GM's Option. But that said, I'd always let people use encounter/daily powers for less than the full effect to get a side effect (this is NOT a "bag of rats" option, as they're expending resources), particularly on the effect line.
If they're using the power in combat, great -- they are choosing to burn something that -could- be used for an attack for less than the full effect. If they are using it in a Skill Challenge, -great!- -- using powers and creativity in skill challenges should be rewarded, not punished (and if you're willing to use, say, the Avenger Daily Aspect of Might in a skill challenge for +5 to Athletics rather than waiting to get a 3w attack and +2 to melee damage in a combat encounter, have fun). If it's in a roleplaying challenge, well, why the hell not?
The same for using normally triggered teleports and such. It's not out of line for the GM to overrule these, but the "say yes" rule -very- much comes into play here.
If they're using the power in combat, great -- they are choosing to burn something that -could- be used for an attack for less than the full effect. If they are using it in a Skill Challenge, -great!- -- using powers and creativity in skill challenges should be rewarded, not punished (and if you're willing to use, say, the Avenger Daily Aspect of Might in a skill challenge for +5 to Athletics rather than waiting to get a 3w attack and +2 to melee damage in a combat encounter, have fun). If it's in a roleplaying challenge, well, why the hell not?
The same for using normally triggered teleports and such. It's not out of line for the GM to overrule these, but the "say yes" rule -very- much comes into play here.
DracoSuave
First Post
Well yes, but they should have a -narrativist- reason for doing so, not merely a -gamist- reason. I'm all for using powers outside their parameters for Awesome, provided they have a good grounding for it, story-wise. But in terms of 'Well, I can technically hit the air so-'... well let's just say 'technically' isn't good story-telling and doesn't exactly make things more 'wtf heroic fantasy go!'
LostSoul
Adventurer
I think it's a DM call.
I would base my ruling on the flavour text of the power. There was a similar question a few months back about the Warlock's Otherwind Stride power. That one opens up a vortex (to the Feywild, I imagine) and the Warlock steps through, teleporting 5 squares.
If it's something like that - a portal opens up - then I'd let it happen. Even if there's no one nearby, you can still open up the portal and step through.
I would base my ruling on the flavour text of the power. There was a similar question a few months back about the Warlock's Otherwind Stride power. That one opens up a vortex (to the Feywild, I imagine) and the Warlock steps through, teleporting 5 squares.
If it's something like that - a portal opens up - then I'd let it happen. Even if there's no one nearby, you can still open up the portal and step through.
There isn't really that much of a difference (which is to say, the gamist reason is "Step it Up"). That said, as a past master of selling things to GMs, I'd never use the "but I can attack the air" garbage excuse (that's not gamist; that's rules lawyering, and bad rules lawyering at that). I'd use (to take an example I actually did) "Can I use Resonant Escape to teleport through the door and follow the Tiefling (who just teleported out) out?"
If the GM thinks it's awesome, great, it works. (IIRC, the GM in question charged me a standard action for it, which was totally cool). If they don't, well, that's the breaks.
The problem with rules-lawerish reasoning here isn't that it doesn't have a good grounding; generally if you're doing this it's because you think it would be awesome, evocative, or cool. But bending the rules like this puts your purely at the GM's mercy -- and rules lawyering pisses the GM off. Therefore, rules lawyering in situations like this
is not exactly an ideal tactic.
Infiniti2000
First Post
We still need to hear from the OP regarding which power. There are several that are explicitly specified as "hit" and not "effect", so I'm concerned that there's a side problem.
Flipguarder
First Post
Dual lightning strike. And I know it is shown as an effect. However within the effect it says "You teleport 4 + your strength modifier squares and make a secondary attack"
My view is that flavorwise it does not make sense to use it as simply a teleport, since the flavor text is "you seem to strike two creatures at once" In addition the effect is imo clearly not designed to be used outside the context of a fight, since it clearly is all about attacking two creatures at once, not all about moving quickly.
My view is that flavorwise it does not make sense to use it as simply a teleport, since the flavor text is "you seem to strike two creatures at once" In addition the effect is imo clearly not designed to be used outside the context of a fight, since it clearly is all about attacking two creatures at once, not all about moving quickly.
PHB pg 272, "When you use a melee attack or a ranged attack, you can target a square instead of an enemy".
If the teleport was contingent on a hit, then he couldn't do this, but as its an effect, I think he'd be able to. He'd look pretty stupid doing it, tho !
Party: "What the hell are you doing, there's nothing here!"
Swordmage: "This is the only way I learned how to teleport."
