Monster bonus damage on multiple attacks?

[Saeviomagy]

Most of the optimization board is theoretical best case scenario and most likely would never work in a real encounter. At least not to the extent that they claim.

Certainly there are builds which suffer those problems. However the fact that every single damage dealing build on the board relies on producing large modifiers to damage that apply to every hit, and then hit multiple times per round should be telling.

The fact that twin strike is pretty much regarded as a must-have for any melee fighter PURELY due to it's ability to double up on damage bonuses should be telling.

Or, you know, just run the numbers for yourself. I'd suggest you go through the ranger list and compare the single hit, multi [w] powers with the multi hit powers, and see which are likely to do more damage and by how many orders of magnitude. Bear in mind that having +20 or so to damage is something that can be done with relative ease.

 

[keterys]

For example, Avalanche Strike is considered one of the most damaging low level encounter powers with a big penalty (+4 to be hit) paying for its big hit. It does 3W+Str+Con damage. Vault the Fallen is also 1st level and does two attacks at 1W+1d6+Str damage (with a free shift sometimes). So Vault the Fallen does more damage in any situation in which 2d6+Str+OtherDamageBonuses > 2W+Con. For my barbarian that was at 4th level I think. At 12th (his current level) the difference is 2d6+24 vs. 4d6+5, or better by 12.

The best part is that Vault the Fallen is actually better than a 5W power for me. I'll probably be keeping that one around for a long time.

At any rate, one of the biggest reasons for damage bonuses to apply to all attack rolls is OAs and APs, so just declaring 'once a round' isn't necessarily the best route for all damage bonuses (for players or monsters). Also, it's very easy to balance monsters around their damage bonuses - it just wasn't done with the halfling slinger.

 

[FireLance]

Actually, the multi-target damage with combat advantage for the halfling slinger is lower than DMG guidelines: the low limited damage expression (for encounter and recharge powers) for 1st to 3rd level monsters is supposed to be 3d6+3, whereas the halfling slinger only deals 2d6+4 damage on a ranged attack with combat advantage.

The real problem with the halfling slinger's power is the same as the ranger's twin strike: it's okay if the damage is spread around, but it's too much when concentrated on a single target. The only tweak I would make to the halfling slinger's power is to impose a maximum of one attack per target.

EDIT: Alternatively, make the same change that I would to twin strike: each additional successful attack on the same target only deals +1[W] damage (+1d6 damage in this case) giving it a maximum of 3d6+4 damage against a single target, or 4d6+4 damage with combat advantage.

 

[keterys]

Combat Advantage is not a Limited attack... even if you make its stone rain multitarget it's still far outdamaging others of its levels, but at least it's no longer quite as scary. Better off just making removing the attack entirely though, since multiple slingers ambushing a group is still completely rude.

 

[FireLance]

Combat Advantage is not a Limited attack.

But the power that enables the halfling slinger to make three attacks at -2 to each attack (stone rain) is.

 

[keterys]

But the power that enables the halfling slinger to make three attacks at -2 to each attack (stone rain) is.

Yes, but your statement referred to it making a normal sneak attack of 2d6+4 and referred to that being lower than the low limited 3d6+3. Maybe you mixed up your references.

Stone Rain potentially deals between 3d6+12 and 6d6+12 so I'm not really sure under what circumstances you'd make any kind of reference to it dealing below Limited damage?

 

[Diirk]

No level 1 artillery in MM1 or MM2 has a +9 vs AC (or a +7 vs FRW, with the usual 2 lower for targeting FRW instead of AC). The DMG guideline for artillery (pg 184) is level +7 attacks vs. AC

So 1 + 7 = +8 to attacks not +9. Given that he said +8 or +9 I hardly think its quibbling over when he got it basically right. The point is they have drastically lower accuracy than other artillery and are counterbalanced by the fact they have a fairly high damage potential. Combat advantage is still fairly hard for them to get tho.

In my spreadsheet I assumed it would get off only 1 sneak attack of the three attacks (which it can do from stealth)

If you're going to assume they have stealth, then they get the +1d6 to all three attacks. Stealth lasts until you finish resolving the action that breaks it. PHB2 pg 222.

 

[keterys]

So maybe it should be even more than the 'already way too much damage' that I pegged it at. I didn't assume perfect conditions for it, so I assumed it would get off an average of 5 attack rolls via Stone Rain (ie, 2/3 chance for a second set of 3 attacks) and that it would only have a 40% chance of hitting, and that 1/3 of its 5 attacks would get the +3.5 from CA. Ie, I actually assumed it would be run poorly.

The truth of the matter is that it's very very easy for it to get off a Stone Rain from stealth at the start of the combat. Since it's from stealth it can choose not to hit the paladin in plate, so it'll have about a 45% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit, 3 attacks on a single person who at level 1 will have an average of 25 hp. Real tough way to start the fight... and that's even if it never makes another attack again. Just kinda poor.

 

[FireLance]

Yes, but your statement referred to it making a normal sneak attack of 2d6+4 and referred to that being lower than the low limited 3d6+3. Maybe you mixed up your references.

Stone Rain potentially deals between 3d6+12 and 6d6+12 so I'm not really sure under what circumstances you'd make any kind of reference to it dealing below Limited damage?

Just to make it clearer:

1. Stone rain with combat advantage deals 2d6+4 damage per attack. Since it is a recharge power, the DMG guidelines say that it ought to deal 3d6+3 damage.

2. Stone rain is also a multi-target power, but it attacks at -2 compared to the base single-attack power. This is in line with the DMG guidelines.

3. Hence, when stone rain is used against three targets, it actually deals less damage than the DMG guidelines for a typical recharge power. (The fact that it is a multi-target power is already accounted for by the attack roll penalty.)

4. Stone rain potentially deals more damage than the DMG guidelines for a recharge power when two or three of the attacks are made against a single target.

5. Hence, if you want to keep the potential damage for stone rain closer to the DMG guidelines, you could rule that each attack must be against a different target, or you could rule that each additional successful attack against a single target deals +1d6 damage (instead of 1d6+4, or 2d6+4 with combat advantage).

 

[Stalker0]

5. Hence, if you want to keep the potential damage for stone rain closer to the DMG guidelines, you could rule that each attack must be against a different target

I think this is a good idea. To me stone rain is only scary dangerous when you focus fire. If you have to spread around the damage, its then solid but not outrageous damage.