Why aren't RPGs poplular

[Raven Crowking]

A role-playing game's "story" is what the participants make at the game table, and is infinite in possibilities. A video game's "story" is confined to the "adventure path" (often a linear "railroad") in which the player is really just a spectator to a predefined "script" of events set up by the programmer. There's really no comparison nor should there be confusion about which is really a role-playing game.

Indeed.

Dungeons & Dragons is an RPG. Let us denote this as RPG(1) to indicate that it fulfills the requirement of being an RPG under the original definition.

Some computer games are called RPGs. Let us denote this as RPG(2) to indicate that the term "RPG" has been co-opted to serve a different definition.

RPG(1) =/= RPG(2).

Because language is living, one can refer to a computer game as an RPG, under the definition of RPG(2), but one should not confuse this with being an RPG under the original definition , RPG(1).

Were I to convince everyone that the term "egg" should be used to denote grizzly bears, then the term "egg" would be viable for describing said bears. But it still wouldn't mean that chickens squeeze grizzlies out for farmers.


RC

 

[Gentlegamer]

Seems a silly thing to say.

Since I consider "silly" to be a Godwin, I'm tempted to ignore your question, but I'll give you benefit of the doubt.

In both you create a character and make decisions about what he's going to do, and as you play he grows and changes. What else is there?

The ability to go "beyond the rules and script" by the adjudication of a game master of infinite possible actions and outcomes, unconstrained by anything other than the imagination of the participants.

To paraphrase Gary, no video game short of something like the Holodeck from Star Trek could be an actual role-playing game (and even the Holodeck would have to be run by an actual intelligence, not just a program).

 

[Gentlegamer]

I didn't intend to derail the thread to another topic, so if others would like to continue the "video game vs. RPG" discussion, I'll be happy to join another thread.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

But it still wouldn't mean that chickens squeeze grizzlies out for farmers.

Surely I'm not the only one who sees the jaw-droppingly awesome monster potential in this statement?

[sblock]DM: Well, you've defeated the formless demonic dragon god of the far realms and all his half-fiend aboleth minions and the entire world of their mindflayer allies. Congratulations!

Player1: Well that's great! Let's grab the Sword and get out of here. But first I go to a tavern and get hammered.

Player2: And I check out the lovely elf ladies--

Player3: What happens now?

DM: Well, you defeated the BBEG. That's awesome! Do whatever you want.

Player3: Well, sure. But what? We still have 3 hours tonight.

DM: (beads of perspiration upon his furrowed brow) Well, in addition to the Sword... ummm.... Roll a spot check.

(Players roll dice)

Player3: 64

Player1: 61

Player2: Woohoo! 78! I spot lots of lovely elf chicks--

DM: Player2, you notice... ummm.... something covered in demon's ichor, entangled with its foul acidic entrails...

Player2: An elf chick?

DM: It's a... a statuette....

Player3: Does this have a point?

DM: (with hostility) Only if you think the Ultimate Threat to the Multiverse is "a point", you fool! You see amongst the slime a weird stone statuette carved in an ancient, primitive form. A statuette... of a chicken... squeezing out.... a grizzly bear.

(Players look dumbfounded)

Player2: Is there any Mountain Dew left?
[/sblock]
When CRPGs can do stuff like that, I will abdicate my humanity, and humbly welcome our new electronic overlords.

 

[mattcolville]

Since I consider "silly" to be a Godwin, I'm tempted to ignore your question, but I'll give you benefit of the doubt.
The ability to go "beyond the rules and script" by the adjudication of a game master of infinite possible actions and outcomes, unconstrained by anything other than the imagination of the participants.

In what manner is that a necessary component to an RPG?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Regarding your second point:
While MMORPGs provide an interface that would allow roleplaying, it's rare to meet players who actually do it (though I might have played on the wrong servers). Back when I was still playing in MUDs, there were several that expected everyone to roleplay and offered a separate 'Out-Of-Character' channel for anything else.
That's the kind of setup required to call a MMORPG a 'roleplaying game' in the original sense.

Well, that is one reason why I included the qualifier "arguably" in my statement.

Online RPGs may indeed be populated largely by "roll players."

But the obvious counterpoint is to question how many people who play P&P RPGs actually roleplay either. IME, many of the people I've shared a table with in the past 30+ years are "roll players," not "role players." That, however, hasn't diminished my enjoyment of the games with them, nor their contributions to the game itself. Its just like they put on a different name tag...kind of like when Sean Connery plays Russian submarine commanders.

(To be clear, I don't play MMORPGs at all, so I have no first hand experience with them.)

 

[Guest 85555]

Well, that is one reason why I included the qualifier "arguably" in my statement.

Online RPGs may indeed be populated largely by "roll players."

But the obvious counterpoint is to question how many people who play P&P RPGs actually roleplay either. IME, many of the people I've shared a table with in the past 30+ years are "roll players," not "role players." That, however, hasn't diminished my enjoyment of the games with them, nor their contributions to the game itself. Its just like they put on a different name tag...kind of like when Sean Connery plays Russian submarine commanders.

(To be clear, I don't play MMORPGs at all, so I have no first hand experience with them.)

That is an interesting point. I think with pen and paper games there is a spectrum on the roll v. role playing thing. Personally I have to admit, I am no thespian, and probably fall somewhere in the middle. I think a lot of it is about comfort zone. I don't feel terribly comfortable speaking with an accent or really getting into a "role", but I do enjoy the story aspect of the game and interactions between PCs and NPCs are a lot of fun.

In most of my games it has been a heavy mix. For a while we had a lot of heavy role players in our group, but the siren call of LARPING was too much for them. I am in a once a month group made up mostly of Role Players (most of them much better than myself at the whole acting aspect of the game).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In all honesty, I doubt anyone can claim that they are and always have been "Role Players"...except the Master Thespian.

I know that I personally vacillate between a young Olivier and the dude who joined the HS drama club to pick up chicks, depending upon the game, the campaign, the group and the PC I'm playing at the time.

I think I average out to a Bruce Campbell.

 

[Umbran]

But the obvious counterpoint is to question how many people who play P&P RPGs actually roleplay either.

Okay, I'm going to step in here and mark the point that will cause grief and argument for three days or more.

"actually roleplay"

This statement implies and requires that you have the one, only, and true definition of roleplaying, and that anyone who doesn't fit that isn't really roleplaying. Whether you mean it to or not, it basically says you have the One True Way.

Traditionally, such assertions start major arguments.

"Roleplaying" is not by any means a well-defined term. At this point, Gary Gygax himself could not make such an assertion in this thread and have everyone agree with him - and that's including the fact that he's dead, and if he were posting he'd be bringing perspective from beyond the grave to the discussion.

So, folks, if we have to hash this out, let us do it without the argument, please.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

"actually roleplay"

This statement implies and requires that you have the one, only, and true definition of roleplaying, and that anyone who doesn't fit that isn't really roleplaying. Whether you mean it to or not, it basically says you have the One True Way.

I hope my last post before this illustrates that I'm not making any claims to knowing the One True Way.

If not, let me formally claim that I don't know of any One True Way to roleplay.

AFAIK, table behavior typically covers a broad spectrum of behavior from those who ought to have SAG cards (and some who actually do) to people who are just rolling die and reacting to the results are treating RPGs more like wargames.

And that can spectrum can be seen in any given player of my acquaintance within a given session...or even minutes.