Was AD&D1 designed for game balance?

Was AD&D1 designed for game balance?


What I think is a double standard is the idea that AD&D1 must be house ruled all to hell and to play well, but D&D3 can't be even tweaked a little without it "falling apart."

The truth is that both games can play just fine with no, light, and heavy house ruling. It's a myth that D&D3 can't take house rules and that AD&D1 requires them.

The fact that some people played AD&D1 straight by the book, and some people play D&D3 with heavy house rules should be proof. But no, it's like a conspiracy theory: proof against the belief is taken just as evidence of a cover up.

Fact: AD&D1 can be played straight by the book.

Fact: D&D3 can be played with heavy house rules.

Bullgrit
 

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What I think is a double standard is the idea that AD&D1 must be house ruled all to hell and to play well, but D&D3 can't be even tweaked a little without it "falling apart."

This is not necessarily a double standard. It all depends on what your standards are. If your take on 1e is it is a collection of oddball and non-integrated subsystems that are hard to understand while your take on 3e is that it is a tightly integrated system, then it's not hard to see that conclusion.
I don't happen to agree with it entirely, but I do believe that 3e is a far more integrated system (but certainly not to the point that you can't house rule it). 1e had some rules that were very difficult to understand and highly cumbersome to use and worked much better with house rules.
 

So to *try* and drag this back somewhere vaguely closer to the original topic, would or could a 4e-style skill challenge system work in a 1e-style game, and would its presence make the game more balanced or less?

I'm not sure it'd fit at all, myself, balanced or not.

I am chasing the bad guy... The dm rules I need to make 3 successes to catch up Maybe 2 dex based but one will be a con roll otherwise I am too fatigued to fullfill the task.... but I miss at least one of them ... yet the dm lets me use my knowledge of the city to try an extra roll an intelligence based one for an extra success etc. Player 2 suggests that he try climbing a wall the dm described earlier using his upper body strength to gain extra ground...and gets to use a strength roll to supplement.

I think one could say fairly elaborate things could be accomplished with just using multiple combined attribute rolls
 

Fact: AD&D1 can be played straight by the book.
Not quite in the literal and punctilious sense that (as seems at least to be the representation) could conceivably apply to 3e. "By the book" is a bit different when the book's instruction is to use your own best judgment! However much or little one might make of them, there are ambiguities -- such as the imponderable "whichever is applicable" -- in AD&D.

The DMG in particular was (IIRC the statement) a huge typewritten manuscript. What that entails might be lost on folks not quite clear on what a typewriter was, but suffice to say that changes were not so easily made and tracked as in the digital age. There are things almost certainly omitted accidentally, or confused by typo, or just not as polished or in harmony with other parts as Gygax himself might have liked.

(TSR made some corrections in later printings. They tried moving art and the like to make room, but found that it was just not practical to fit everything in the existing space. Adding pages meant adding a whole signature, so they went ahead and added more appendices.)

Nor was the "Advanced" title just nonsense. Right from the first volume, the MM, the work was referred to as the "second part" of the new D&D releases. It was addressed primarily to people who already knew how to play D&D, who already understood that "it is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important."

WotC nearly reversed that maxim, and in any case devoted a great deal of effort to making the letter of the 3e rules not only comprehensive but clear. With the 3.5 revision, some things (it seems to me) were revised for greater uniformity at the expense of some "simulation" factors in the earlier formulas.

"Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game." The trouble in AD&D is that the intent is not so obvious to everyone -- and even people who get it might not like it.
 
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The DMG in particular was (IIRC the statement) a huge typewritten manuscript. What that entails might be lost on folks not quite clear on what a typewriter was, but suffice to say that changes were not so easily made and tracked as in the digital age. There are things almost certainly omitted accidentally, or confused by typo, or just not as polished or in harmony with other parts as Gygax himself might have liked.

This is a good point and one that is easy to forget in the age of easy revision and typesetting -- just how much effort it took to put together professional work back then. At a certain point I remember leaving sub-optimal wording in place givne the effort to retype many, many pages of work.

So, yes, this is another reason AD&D would have ambiguity as well.
 

Not quite in the literal and punctilious sense that (as seems at least to be the representation) could conceivably apply to 3e. "By the book" is a bit different when the book's instruction is to use your own best judgment! However much or little one might make of them, there are ambiguities -- such as the imponderable "whichever is applicable" -- in AD&D.

The DMG in particular was (IIRC the statement) a huge typewritten manuscript. What that entails might be lost on folks not quite clear on what a typewriter was, but suffice to say that changes were not so easily made and tracked as in the digital age. There are things almost certainly omitted accidentally, or confused by typo, or just not as polished or in harmony with other parts as Gygax himself might have liked.

(TSR made some corrections in later printings. They tried moving art and the like to make room, but found that it was just not practical to fit everything in the existing space. Adding pages meant adding a whole signature, so they went ahead and added more appendices.)

Nor was the "Advanced" title just nonsense. Right from the first volume, the MM, the work was referred to as the "second part" of the new D&D releases. It was addressed primarily to people who already knew how to play D&D, who already understood that "it is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important."

WotC nearly reversed that maxim, and in any case devoted a great deal of effort to making the letter of the 3e rules not only comprehensive but clear. With the 3.5 revision, some things (it seems to me) were revised for greater uniformity at the expense of some "simulation" factors in the earlier formulas.

"Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game." The trouble in AD&D is that the intent is not so obvious to everyone -- and even people who get it might not like it.

This is one of the best written post in this tread. I was a clerk/typist at the time so I know what you mean. While there where ways they required a lot of time, expense and training that TSR either did not have or most likely could not afford.

I this this part of the quote is the most important and most telling in an other way also

The trouble in AD&D is that the intent is not so obvious to everyone -- and even people who get it might not like it.
3.x changed the approach and style to fit the ones that did not get the intent of AD&D. In doing so they caused the ones that did understand it major problems. The changed from (for the lack of better terms) pose based thinking to block/rules based thinking. This was one of the causes IMO the split we see. It might be why Ariosto does not like it while lots of those that do don't think AD&D was as good a product that he does.

PS ex point to Ariosto for a well written point.
 



Listen up folks! If you don't like what someone has to say, you can ignore them (we have a function to support that), or you can choose to not respond.

But you don't get to tell people to go away. If they are within the bounds of The Rules, you don't get to tell them where, when, or upon what topics they may post. "Lightheartedness" is not an excuse.

The condescending "go away kid, you bother me" implication here is dismissive and rude. Don't do that again.
 
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"My Level X character is equal to your Level X character." Even substituting the more accurate gauge of "X experience points", that's not really a big deal in old D&D. After all, the basic idea is that you should rack up more XP in the first place via skilled play than does some blunderer. And you're not forced to give up your levels just because a total newbie gets to experience starting from 1st (although you're probably not taking a Lord or Wizard on the same expedition!).

Viable. You conflate two different "level" balance ideas. The first is that a 12th level thief and a 12th level magic-user should has some nod to balance (options available, raw power, or spotlight time) and the second is that a 12th level thief should be equal to a 1st level fighter (who is replacing the 12th level magic-user who just died).

The second is preposterous as it defeats the point of levels. No one, except a few interested in redesigning a game from scratch, feels 1st and 12th level should roughly the same power level.

The first is IMHO vital. Otherwise you create a "tier" system where some classes begin (or end) simply better than others. If it was a simple as "fighters start good, but get worse while mages just the opposite) it'd be passable, but both classes can overshadow thieves, while a ranger is clearly a superior choice to a fighter, and a well-run cleric can overshadow both.

"My character is just as good as your character in combat." Nope. Magic-users and thieves are not fighters.

Combat is a ubiquitous marker to use. I still prefer the concept of "each character excels in a niche no other class can match". Balance. Fighters should dominate combat. Thieves should be the perfect scout/spy/assassin. Clerics are masters of healing/defensive magic, mages should have offensive, summoning and transportation magic bar-none. Other classes can dabble in a second role (clerics make fine 2nd fighters, mages get some defensive spells) but no class should do its role AND another role better than the class designed for it. (IE a ranger is a better scout/spy and combatant than a fighter AND thief).

Lastly, every class should have some option in combat, even if its less-superior than the fighters. Thieves get backstab, clerics are decent fighters with a bit of offense, mages have polymorphs and summons, etc. NOTHING is more boring than sitting through combat after combat doing nothing (or maybe a few points of missile damage) while your friends are having a blast hacking up goblins or throwing fire-and-lightning.

"A or B or C is true of The Party." The Party, as a constant entity, was not part of the design. Conan and the Grey Mouser might team up to rob the Tower of Eels one session, then part ways. Conan might then accompany Thongor, Elric, and Tyana and some of her pirates for a raid. Then, Thongor, Tyana and Mouser (with a shipload of Mingols) might join Fafhrd on Rime Isle.

"A good party balance would be something like 40% fighters, 30% magic-users, 20% clerics and 10% thieves." - Lawrence Schick, White Plume Mountain.

"The optimum mix for a group is 9 characters of various classes..." Gary Gygax, Steading of the Hill Giant Chief.

D&D has ALWAYS been about the party. Its not a collection of individuals, its a TEAMWORK-based game. A good game should challenge all players and all classes that are there; the hallmark of a poor DM is one who believes all challenges should be overcome by only magic or combat alone.

"Each encounter should be 'level appropriate'" Not on the horizon. The players' estimation of risk and reward is key to the game.

Every encounter should be in a survivable range. If there is a dragon, even a powerful one the PCs have no business fighting, it should still be young enough the PCs might survive a breath-weapon strike while fleeing. Pitching a great wyrm with a blast so powerful its "save 1/2" damage is guaranteed to drop even the barbarian to -10 isn't a challenge, its a turkey shoot. If the PCs are foolish enough to want the fight the dragon, all bets are off. But having a fighting chance (even if its just to retreat) goes a long way to fostering good PC/DM will, and I find if PCs believe they will die from EVERYTHING (goblin ambushes at night, every lock a death-poisoned needle, every dragon a great wyrm) the game either slows down to the point of 45 minute argument at every door, or a group of WTF PCs kicking in every door in a moment of chaotic frenzy that would make a Toon Player proud.
 

I find if PCs believe they will die from EVERYTHING (goblin ambushes at night, every lock a death-poisoned needle, every dragon a great wyrm) the game either slows down to the point of 45 minute argument at every door, or a group of WTF PCs kicking in every door in a moment of chaotic frenzy that would make a Toon Player proud.
Those that complain about real challenges might be better off playing Candyland with their little sister :p
- E. Gary Gygax
 

Those that complain about real challenges might be better off playing Candyland with their little sister :p
- E. Gary Gygax

From the Old-School Demon's (Type VII) Dictionary:

CHALLENGE (Noun) The state of affairs in which the game is calibrated so that any move that is not painstakingly planned, meticulously detailed, utterly paranoid, ruthless and amoral, and rigorously focused on the purposes of survival and gain over drama or characterization will result in a character's swift, brutal and traumatic demise.

;)

Many thanks to several folks on this thread for driving me even farther away from 'true' D&D and old-school gaming. ;) I'll see how it goes if a local gamer gets a BECM game up and running, but the self-conscious old school is looking less and less appealing.
 

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