Darrin Drader
Explorer
Sure, but that requires starting with a game where 90% of it works for you. Mercurius seems to be describing being less than 90% happy.
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Falling off the 4ed bandwagon
- Thread starter Mercurius
- Start date
Sure, but that requires starting with a game where 90% of it works for you. Mercurius seems to be describing being less than 90% happy.
re
I tried 4E. Ran some characters to level 11. About that level we all grew weary of the game except for one guy. 4E wasn't for us. The magic system was too limiting. The level of lethality was lacking. Solos in general died far too easily. The hardest fights seemed to be elites and common monsters in a mix. The power system was repetitious and encouraged repetition. Players were using their encounter powers just because they could rather than because they were needed. Just all around killed the immersion.
I did like some things about 4e. I liked that they eliminated the magic item Christmas tree. We've been working to do that in our Pathfinder campaign by giving both sides less magic. Seems to be working. I like the idea of rituals, though I don't like the implementation. I like that magic was used as a counter in previous editions rather than solely for combat. It made you feel good as a cleric to have a freedom of movement or death ward ready when the pack of spectres show up. 4E was too limited a game for my tastes and changing the flavor text doesn't change how the mechanics work. I didn't like the mechanics.
I'm always amazed by the differerent ways people see games. I felt like 4E simplified and compartmentalized tactics, especially for casters and made combat less lethal and interesting. Undead weren't very fearsome any longer. They were just another monster to beat on. And I still fail to see how pushing something a few squares repeatedly is an advancement in tactics. I guess many people just didn't get much mileage out of 3E or previous iterations of D&D.
I like options. I like combat that simulates fighting styles versus "powers". I like rules that at least attempt to give you a reasonable means by which to accomplish a particular action like grappling or disarming a weapon. I like a magic system that is fluid and lasts past 1 or 2 rounds with inherent counters.
The best thing I can say about 4E is the prep time was vastly reduced even if the in game combat wasn't any faster. And I liked some of the ideas for monster building like giving a creature a ton of hit points and making it capable of fighting an entire party. I took some of those ideas with me to Pathfinder.
And as far as your dilemma: find the game system closest to what you like and modify it as you like whether it's your own house rule or something you steal from another edition of D&D or another game system. Don't let a game system kill your imagination.
I tried 4E. Ran some characters to level 11. About that level we all grew weary of the game except for one guy. 4E wasn't for us. The magic system was too limiting. The level of lethality was lacking. Solos in general died far too easily. The hardest fights seemed to be elites and common monsters in a mix. The power system was repetitious and encouraged repetition. Players were using their encounter powers just because they could rather than because they were needed. Just all around killed the immersion.
I did like some things about 4e. I liked that they eliminated the magic item Christmas tree. We've been working to do that in our Pathfinder campaign by giving both sides less magic. Seems to be working. I like the idea of rituals, though I don't like the implementation. I like that magic was used as a counter in previous editions rather than solely for combat. It made you feel good as a cleric to have a freedom of movement or death ward ready when the pack of spectres show up. 4E was too limited a game for my tastes and changing the flavor text doesn't change how the mechanics work. I didn't like the mechanics.
I'm always amazed by the differerent ways people see games. I felt like 4E simplified and compartmentalized tactics, especially for casters and made combat less lethal and interesting. Undead weren't very fearsome any longer. They were just another monster to beat on. And I still fail to see how pushing something a few squares repeatedly is an advancement in tactics. I guess many people just didn't get much mileage out of 3E or previous iterations of D&D.
I like options. I like combat that simulates fighting styles versus "powers". I like rules that at least attempt to give you a reasonable means by which to accomplish a particular action like grappling or disarming a weapon. I like a magic system that is fluid and lasts past 1 or 2 rounds with inherent counters.
The best thing I can say about 4E is the prep time was vastly reduced even if the in game combat wasn't any faster. And I liked some of the ideas for monster building like giving a creature a ton of hit points and making it capable of fighting an entire party. I took some of those ideas with me to Pathfinder.
And as far as your dilemma: find the game system closest to what you like and modify it as you like whether it's your own house rule or something you steal from another edition of D&D or another game system. Don't let a game system kill your imagination.
But if that were the case, why would retro-clones be doing well? I mean, as you say, there's no going back to when we played for the first time. No retro-clone can make the game new for us. (Unless you think people are buying retro-clones for nostalgia and then giving up on them after a few games, which some people undoubtedly do, but it doesn't seem like enough to drive the old-school renaissance.)
Just as a note, my current gaming group consists mostly of people who were introduced to D&D for the first time in the 3.5 era. When Gary Gygax died, I got out my BECMI ruleset since I didn't have the 1E rulebooks handy, and we played a one-shot adventure in his memory. Everyone loved it, despite never having played it before - no nostalgia value for anybody except me.
Retro-clones have more than just nostalgia going for them. There's something real there that has been lost in later editions. You may or may not be willing to abandon the advantages of those later editions to get it back - I'm not at that point yet, though "Castles and Crusades" is beginning to interest me - but it does exist.
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LostSoul
Adventurer
Here are two different ways to approach description.
The first works like this: player decides on course of action -> description of action -> mechanical resolution -> description of outcome.
The second works like this: player decides on course of action -> mechanical resolution -> description of outcome.
In the first version the description of the action has an effect on the action's resolution; in the second it doesn't.
When you pull out Page 42 to "do something cool" you're using the first technique; when you use a Power, you're using the second.
It's been a while since I've seen a real fiery edition war on ENWorld. I think most of us have got it out of our systems.
(Or maybe it's just that I put the most relentless edition warriors on ignore.)
keterys
First Post
Honestly, I think the best trick is to play some very different games, to get a feel for things. Something not at all D&D, so you can see what's good or bad about things, and what you liked or didn't like, and different ways people approach things.
Piratecat's where I'd go next - take it all a bit less seriously and stretch the system out a little bit.
I had an interesting experience with a 4e group I just started running for the other day, for a group I've run lots before - GURPS, White Wolf, Shadowrun, 3e, etc - but first time 4e. The group had been playing 4e for a year or so before that and were pretty 'eh' on it, but I just wanted to give a shot at it for them before they dropped it.
First session, I've got a villain whose dangling a child over shark-infested water via a chain. Sadly, he lacked a moustache to twirl, but stock movie stuff. And the bard who fancies herself a throwing knife specialist goes 'I wish I had a power to throw a knife in between links of the chain to stop her falling' and I go 'Sounds good, make your attack'. And she was baffled. Didn't have that specific power on the sheet, so how could she do it? Well, I said 'What, it's D&D, you can do whatever you think about if it sounds good. But if you really care, there's a chart in the DMG page 42, all for improvised stunts and such'. So she did, and it went well.
After that, it's time for treasure. These guys are thinking 4e items suck, cause it's all "Once per day, you can shift 1 square. And like it". Well one of the items they get are gauntlets with a line:
Power (Limited): Free Action. Use this power when you hit with a melee attack. Add a +5 bonus to the damage roll and push the target 1 square.
Limited? What's that? "Okay, here's the deal. You can use 1 limited item power per tier per encounter. So... now, just one per encounter. One item, can use it every encounter. Five items, only one. When you guys hit 11th, hopefully some day, it'll bump up to two per encounter." "Cool!" It's not hard to give out custom items - you can even type things into the character builder or print out cards with all the details (that's what we do, one of the players prints up cards with the stats on 'em)
After the session, one of the players goes. "Err, sorry earlier when we were trying to gather information, and you were asking what I wanted to know when I made Streetwise checks. Umm, I just got used to doing skill challenges and we'd just roll some stuff and stuff would happen, without really thinking about, y'know, talking to people"
So, yeah, I think a lot of people have got the blinders on for 4e. Some of that is certainly the character builder. I mean, I remember when 3e came out, I was making new classes, making variant d20 systems, right in day 1. But people don't talk about doing that for 4e often. It's interesting.
What I really want is a 4e Unearthed Arcana. Whole book of 'change the whole damn game' to really let people feel a bit more free. The DMG2's everyone get enhancement bonuses was a good start. That even got in the character builder
Anyhow, tangented enough. Go nuts, play games, have fun til you're having more fun. Good luck
Piratecat's where I'd go next - take it all a bit less seriously and stretch the system out a little bit.
I had an interesting experience with a 4e group I just started running for the other day, for a group I've run lots before - GURPS, White Wolf, Shadowrun, 3e, etc - but first time 4e. The group had been playing 4e for a year or so before that and were pretty 'eh' on it, but I just wanted to give a shot at it for them before they dropped it.
First session, I've got a villain whose dangling a child over shark-infested water via a chain. Sadly, he lacked a moustache to twirl, but stock movie stuff. And the bard who fancies herself a throwing knife specialist goes 'I wish I had a power to throw a knife in between links of the chain to stop her falling' and I go 'Sounds good, make your attack'. And she was baffled. Didn't have that specific power on the sheet, so how could she do it? Well, I said 'What, it's D&D, you can do whatever you think about if it sounds good. But if you really care, there's a chart in the DMG page 42, all for improvised stunts and such'. So she did, and it went well.
After that, it's time for treasure. These guys are thinking 4e items suck, cause it's all "Once per day, you can shift 1 square. And like it". Well one of the items they get are gauntlets with a line:
Power (Limited): Free Action. Use this power when you hit with a melee attack. Add a +5 bonus to the damage roll and push the target 1 square.
Limited? What's that? "Okay, here's the deal. You can use 1 limited item power per tier per encounter. So... now, just one per encounter. One item, can use it every encounter. Five items, only one. When you guys hit 11th, hopefully some day, it'll bump up to two per encounter." "Cool!" It's not hard to give out custom items - you can even type things into the character builder or print out cards with all the details (that's what we do, one of the players prints up cards with the stats on 'em)
After the session, one of the players goes. "Err, sorry earlier when we were trying to gather information, and you were asking what I wanted to know when I made Streetwise checks. Umm, I just got used to doing skill challenges and we'd just roll some stuff and stuff would happen, without really thinking about, y'know, talking to people"
So, yeah, I think a lot of people have got the blinders on for 4e. Some of that is certainly the character builder. I mean, I remember when 3e came out, I was making new classes, making variant d20 systems, right in day 1. But people don't talk about doing that for 4e often. It's interesting.
What I really want is a 4e Unearthed Arcana. Whole book of 'change the whole damn game' to really let people feel a bit more free. The DMG2's everyone get enhancement bonuses was a good start. That even got in the character builder
Anyhow, tangented enough. Go nuts, play games, have fun til you're having more fun. Good luck
Raven Crowking
First Post
Bunk.
I was told this when I was dissatisfied with 3e, and for a while I bought it. I can even link to the post where I said so waaaayyyyy back when. But you know what? I started a project to retrofit the rules to the way I wanted to play, and the magic is as strong as it ever was. Stronger, even, because it is informed by decades of experience.
Find a game you want to play, or make the game be one you want to play.
Buy into "What you want is nostalgia anyway, and you can never recapture it" and it will become the truth.
RC
Piratecat
Sesquipedalian
I know that I'm continuously in wonder at Sagiro's DMing (we're 19th lvl in a 3.5 game that started back in 2e), and I think I'm on my way to getting that same feel for my 4e games. I think I agree with RC, in that we've captured "magic" in every edition we've played. It has a ton to do with your group and your campaign, more so in my opinion than a rules set itself. It just takes work to keep the players involved, intrigued and on the edge of their seat for what happens next.
I like 4e right now because it's so much easier for me as a DM. My prep time has dropped from 3 hours a game to 30 minutes. That leaves me more time to plot, and that makes me happy. But I'm sure I'd get that same benefit with other game systems as well.
I like 4e right now because it's so much easier for me as a DM. My prep time has dropped from 3 hours a game to 30 minutes. That leaves me more time to plot, and that makes me happy. But I'm sure I'd get that same benefit with other game systems as well.
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Go nuts, play games, have fun til you're having more fun. Good luck
Why do I think you're Edna 'E' Mode of DnD?
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