Wizard Build Suggestions (PHB ONLY!)

[UngeheuerLich]

@ Dance of Mask: I consider Adventurers Vault beeing right there from day 1. So there can be no power creep in Adventurers Vault...

also: the damage increase from greatsword to fullblade is very low (besides crits). Actually the most funny thing is that usually non-military blade users skip greatsword for fullblade. But then, they were not expected to use big swords from the beginning.

When everything you do is taking DPR feats, than yes your choice is narrowed since some feats are better than others... but: in my builds i have very varied feats and i still can´t get all i want for some builds... and i don´t use dragon content...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

@ Dance of Mask: I consider Adventurers Vault beeing right there from day 1. So there can be no power creep in Adventurers Vault...

also: the damage increase from greatsword to fullblade is very low (besides crits). Actually the most funny thing is that usually non-military blade users skip greatsword for fullblade. But then, they were not expected to use big swords from the beginning.

When everything you do is taking DPR feats, than yes your choice is narrowed since some feats are better than others... but: in my builds i have very varied feats and i still can´t get all i want for some builds... and i don´t use dragon content...

Yeah, its tempting to say that AV1 is practically core given the fact that it contains a lot of stuff that it is really hard to do without and seems to have established the baseline for what has followed. Technically its not core but playing without it entirely is pretty limiting. Considering it was the first supplement and was in the store practically from day one I actually find it kind of hard to even compare with PHB1 ONLY as there are very few people that have actually played that way.

It would be impossible to say that the AV1 superior weapons aren't better than the PHB military weapons but then again with only military weapons available the whole weapon proficiency mechanic was largely useless as an upgrade from longsword to bastard sword was not worth a feat. The only classes that would ever bother with it pre-AV1 were STR clerics grabbing bastard or great sword or an occasional character that wanted a bow or just plain wanted a specific weapon for RP reasons.

I really do not at all fathom your argument DancesWithMasks. How many options there are is different thing from power creep entirely. There are yes now a LOT more builds that are able to be as powerful as the best builds, but the best builds that you could make on day one are STILL right up there with any of them and not hugely different from what they were to start with. Maybe you weren't around charops at the start of 4e. There was plenty of wacky goodness/cheese there right from day one.

And like I say, there WAS a slight shift in character baseline power, but it really was almost entirely a feature of AV1 and can best be considered a design decision. I guess you can call that power creep though personally it seems more like the game just settling into its groove to me.

 

[Danceofmasks]

So what you're saying is, there's been power creep, but you also call it a design feature?

 

[KarinsDad]

As for skill bonuses... Generally speaking once you hit a certain point with a skill bonus its pretty pointless to jack it up even further, although there are some exceptions specific to certain builds and in general a really outrageous Arcana skill bonus can be justified for some characters. Stealth beyond +16 (actually you CAN do better with just PHB but you got the major bonuses) does what for you?

I just answered Nifft's question. It's possible to get very high skills because of the splat books. Whether they are needed or not is not relevant to whether they can be achieved or not.

There is simply no low paragon tier creature that is going to see you EVER unless it rolls 17+ and you get a 1.

Your math is a bit off.

Rogue Level 11. Just starting to run into foes with Perception like a level 12 Guardian Naga at +13 or a Medusa Warrior at level 13 with +16.

Rogue has 5 level, 5 trained, 3 focus, 2 item, and 5 Dex for a total of +20. It has already cost him a feat.

Sure, he is better than either of these two monsters. But "it rolls 17+ and you get a 1"???

Hardly. If the monster rolls a 17, the Rogue still has to roll an 11 or an 8 respectively.

This is far from automatic. Even the less perceptive monster here (+13 vs. +20) notices the Rogue about 24% of the time. The more perceptive monster notices the PC about 36% of the time. And if the Rogue does not take Skill Focus, the more perceptive monster (only 2 levels higher) notices him almost half of the time. The stealthy normal Rogue PC gets noticed nearly half of the time with an item. What about less stealthy PCs???

And to get to automatic with opposed skills like Stealth, one has to have a +19 or +20 (depending on direction) advantage on your foe. But, some players will want to get as close to that as possible.


Ditto for monster checks (quite a few DC 35 checks at low epic that are not automatic).

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, stealth is one of those checks that are on a heavily skewed probability curve when it comes to being detected.

Less of an issue when you're only opposed by passive perception, but if each PC has to roll stealth vs. each monster, the odds of being detected are pretty darn high unless you have a humungous bonus advantage.

 

[Elric]

And to get to automatic with opposed skills like Stealth, one has to have a +19 or +20 (depending on direction) advantage on your foe. But, some players will want to get as close to that as possible.

This is pretty much a waste, though. Once the player is up +11 (and winning ties; or +12 and losing ties), he wins 91% of the opposed checks. Finding +8 more so you always win has really run into diminishing returns.

Of course, if several enemies are trying to spot you at once and you only stay hidden if you beat all of their rolls, then returns to maximizing stealth diminish more slowly.

For a skill like Perception when you often use your passive score, returns to maximizing it diminish more sharply; being up by 10 Perception against opponent's Stealth guarantees success.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Yeah, but the problem is if multiple PCs have to roll vs multiple monsters across multiple rounds.
It's a case of one instance of detection = fail.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There's a difference between the system being filled out to what it was actually designed to be, largely accomplished in AV1 with some more important tweaks in PHB2. That's all really. Yeah, PCs have more options, but when you start looking at it carefully right now a LOT of those options are mutually exclusive or don't work well together. Expertise, Weapon Focus, and the paragon and epic weapon feats are very standard for weapon users but not all mandatory by any means. You just won't get EVERYTHING you could ever want because a lot of bread-n-butter feats and really good specialty feats have stat prereqs that make it hard to get them all (or impossible). Most of that was in place in PHB except Expertise (in all its forms).

The other feats are all situational or work on OAs or whatnot. There are quite a few good ones but again its hard to make them all useful on one character. Even without prereqs who's going to take a character with a tanked dex and grap Nimble Blade? Its one of the best situational feats out there, but not all rogues have it by far. So yes there are a few more situations where PCs can gain advantage and plenty of ways to combine that with items etc to do good stuff. Is that good stuff better than the old good stuff? Not really much.

And again the better combos that started working with AV1? Yes, they were intended to set the power level the way they did (mostly). OK, its a power BOOST, but don't call it "creep". There's no way they could cram into the PHB all the stuff they wanted players to have and there were few really good builds. AV1 was needed. I only really see increased options in newer stuff and very little increases power overall. You can get a bonus for having a familiar, ok but you pay a feat for it, lol. Sure the bonus is pretty much what the feat is worth and you also get a familiar which gives you another rather circumstantial benefit.

I'm just not losing sleep over this and the power level is not going up and up. There are only so many things one PC can benefit from. That's one of the good things about 4e. When it comes to powers and feats there's already more than enough. Unless you unleash a whopping feat its not going to be better than what I have already.

Do watch Dragon stuff though, they seem to have a different standard over there. I'm cautious about allowing a lot of it, but then most players aren't begging for more choices. If anything the game is getting so sprawling now that even figuring out the perfect combo that will break things is beyond most players. And no system will totally withstand hardcore tweakers.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Yeah well ... sometimes you don't see problems just 'cos you don't want to see them.

4e is a robust system for the most part, and more so than 3e.

However, you can break games with access to single items.

Example:
Hi, I'm a level 20 cleric. Level 13 items are peanuts. I can make them in 1 hour, too (with some residuum or whatever).
I hit something with a level 5 daily. Rune of peace. It cannot attack (save ends)

Not broken, right? It'll just save in a turn or two, and that's the end of that.

Unless ... you MC'ed wizard and have 4 orbs of karmic resonance ...
That's approximately 8 rounds of not being able to attack.
By the time it manages to make a save, it's dead.

This isn't hardcore tweaking, this is a battle cleric + 1 item.

 

[Elric]

Yeah, but the problem is if multiple PCs have to roll vs multiple monsters across multiple rounds.
It's a case of one instance of detection = fail.

In these cases, though, the overall chance of success for the PCs is so low that unless the survival of the party is riding on every PC succeeding, it's not even worth taking feats to boost your party's chances of success. From 2% to 2.5% isn't much of an increase.

Fortunately, the skill challenge mechanic ensures that if you have a "Stealth" skill challenge, only the stealthiest PC needs to roll