Are wardens overpowered?

[Kzach]

I said this when I first saw the class and now after seeing them played in several different games, I honestly feel it's significantly more powerful than any other defender or any other class.

In particular the Earthstrength Warden seems to have zero downside and manages to outdo other classes. Not just one class, mind you, but several at the same time. In one group I'm in, the warden does more damage than the strikers, has more resilience than any of our defenders we've had (several people have come and gone in the group), has excellent lock-down abilities and is barely ever affected by attacks because of high defences and save opportunities, and they have the most hit points of any class.

They have just about everything except self-healing. But even then, they have tons of healing surges!

A goliath earthstrength warden is a party unto himself.

 

[yesnomu]

Um. No? They're much less sticky than a Fighter (though Sudden Roots helps), can't punish a shift+charge nearly as well as any other defender, and in the Earthstrength's case, have two medium to terrible NADs. They are tough defenders, certainly, but that really just encourages enemies to ignore them as much as they can--and when they're the only one up, they're not going to last long anyway.

I've seen three Wardens (two Earth, one Wild) played myself, and while they certainly weren't bad, I wouldn't call them better than a Fighter. If they're doing more damage than the Strikers, there's a problem with your Strikers.

 

[Prism]

Can you provide a bit more info. I haven't seen one in play yet (new campaign with one starts soon) but there is nothing I can see in the class that provides a warden with better defenses than other defenders or attacks that are better than a striker. Surely a swordmage and paladin are going to have better defenses typically - warden with 18 CON/WIS should be on par with fighter. What sort of strikers are you comparing against as I don't see how the warden competes on damage. Resilience and stickiness look top drawer however

 

[keterys]

It has been my general experience that wardens are all around quite decent, but not spectacular. I have not played one, but I have played alongside a few and DMed for a few. Only level range 1-14 though.

So, as far as I can tell the answer to your question is No.

 

[Elric]

I've seen three Wardens (two Earth, one Wild) played myself, and while they certainly weren't bad, I wouldn't call them better than a Fighter. If they're doing more damage than the Strikers, there's a problem with your Strikers.

Or it could be something like "The Warden multiclassed Barbarian, power-swapped for and is using Storm of Blades (encounter 13), and you're not playing by the rules update on it."

If so, there's an easy solution to that!

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I play a STR/CON Dragonborn Greatweapon Fighter in a group with a STR/CON Longtooth Shifter Earthstrength Warden, and I don't see the "overpowered" aspect that you are.

I outdamage our Warden since I'm going with a two handed Execution Axe versus his Khopesh and Shield. Granted, he could go with a bigger weapon but it wouldn't change the damage that much (he could go up to Waraxe, be 1 damage behind me, but I'm still more accurate). I outdamage our Rogue on a crit (High Crit + Vicious = nasty crits), but for average damage he's the king of the party, and we both outdamage the Warden.

As for defenses and survivability, the Warden is pretty good but not overpowered. I think we have about the same AC, but like me he's got crap for Reflex (the shield helps a bit though) and Will defense (we both have WIS as a tertiary, so we're about the same). Font of Life only helps for ONE condition, so in terms of shaking off nasty effects, he's not that far ahead of me. He has more HP, true, but he also tends to get attacked less.

Due to his inability to punish a shift, the DM frequently tries to get away from him and ignore his marks. So while yeah, he can mark a lot of enemies, it's easy for them to get away from him. On the other hand though, the DM is very afraid of my mark because it hits a lot harder and a lot more often than the Warden's...plus, I have the nasty habit of killing enemies that ignore me.

So, at least in our game, I would say that the Warden is a very tough, very capable Defender, but not overpowered. He seems to be a bit of a generalist Defender in fact, in that a lot of the other Defenders seem to have the ability to specialize in something and do it better than the Warden. Swordmages have more mobility and ability to protect allies, Pally's have more ability to punish more opponents and heal allies, and Fighters have more ability to do sheer damage and has a stronger mark and the ability to control enemy movement better (Combat Superiority beats Sudden Roots any day).

 

[Mengu]

For heroic levels up to 6ish, I do not see how wardens perform any better than a fighter, paladin, or swordmage. They are nice, but if I was going to complain about a defender class that outshines others, I'd point the finger at the fighter.

To me, Warden is the baseline actually, for what a defender should be able to do.

I think playing a paladin or warden takes a good bit of finesse to bring decent performance to the table, and it seems you have a good warden player in your hands. A fighter has a much easier and straightforward array of abilities, and the many ways you can build a fighter just makes the class as versatile as can be to suit the needs of a party. Swordmages are just weird.

 

[Felon]

So, Kzach, how does a warden outdamage other classes? it can use a two-handed superior weapon, but that doesn't distinguish it from a lot of other classes, including other defenders.

 

[Kzach]

A 6th-level goliath earthstrength warden with +1 items can do the following:

21 AC (25 for a turn after using second wind)
19 Fort (excellent)
15 Ref (not terrible)
17 Will (good)

Has 71 hit points (without Toughness)

Has an immediate interrupt and immediate reaction against marked creatures that attack another target. One of which works up to 5 squares away.

Can save against any single effect at the start of their turn and again against the same effect if it's still on, at the end of their turn.

Has an at-will which grants temporary hit points.

Has an at-will which does striker-level damage.

If they use one of two daily powers, they gain a +6 bonus to all their damage. So for two encounters a day, they're doing more than a striker level of damage. 2d6+19 on an at-will at 6th-level.

Weight of Earth = 2d6 (r1) + 4 (strength) + 4 (crippling crush) + 1 (weapon enhancement) + 2 (iron armbands) + 4 (maw of the guardian) + 2 (crushing guardian) + 1 (weapon focus) + 1 (talon amulet).

Even without the +6, it's still +13 damage on every attack with slow or immobilise. Combined with good defences, high hit points, double saves, and good attack denial through free marking of every adjacent enemy every turn, it's more powerful than any other defender.

 

[Elric]

Weight of Earth = 2d6 (r1) + 4 (strength) + 4 (crippling crush) + 1 (weapon enhancement) + 2 (iron armbands) + 4 (maw of the guardian) + 2 (crushing guardian) + 1 (weapon focus) + 1 (talon amulet).

Item bonuses from Iron Armbands and Talon Amulet don't stack.

Crippling Crush is an incredibly strong feat; hadn't seen that before. Maw of the Guardian is pretty awesome as well.

Even without the +6, it's still +13 damage on every attack with slow or immobilise. Combined with good defences, high hit points, double saves, and good attack denial through free marking of every adjacent enemy every turn, it's more powerful than any other defender.

I think this is about the degree of optimization. This warden has taken all 4 feats (Crippling Crush, Mordenkrad Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Crushing Guardian) that add to his damage. He's taken a particularly strong magic weapon property that adds to damage, and has taken neck slots and arm slots that add to damage. I'm not sure there is the equivalent for other classes of Maw of the Guardian at this level, and other characters have probably not been as focused on increasing damage.

Also, you seem to be focusing a bit too much on damage on a hit. Expected damage is what counts, and his to-hit bonus isn't going to be stellar.

Is this a really strong build? Yes. Is it so strong no other defender could compete? No.