Pathfinder 1E Opinions on Pathfinder

[Mark Chance]

And, we're also better looking and have at least a 19 INT as well! (supra-genius for those of us who played 1E)

You've hit on the key. This player entitlement concept that folks have been talking about is really a 1st-level illusion. Since we old-timers have Intelligence 19 (minimum), we're immune to 1st-level illusions. It all makes perfect sense now.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

If I want to customize a 4e dragon's stat block, it takes me 5 minutes to start up the Monster Builder, make the necessary changes by increasing or decreasing level and swapping out powers, and print it or save it for later use.

This can be done in the same amont of time with any number of free or pay programs in 3.5 most work just as well on pathfinder as well. So if he did it 15 mins by hand out of a book with paper saying "Oh yeah 5 mins baby with my program" is not the same thing, now if you can do the same thing with pen and paper out of a book in 5 min that be the same thing.

 

[Drkfathr1]

I am not sure if comparing the statblock of a PF dragon and the statblock of a 4e dragon is a fair example regarding it's non-combat abilities.

There are two full books for 4e talking specifically about dragons and their ilk, it discusses their motivations, their plans, how their lairs look, what they like and dislike, society, religions, etc.

It's just that.... well..... they don't need that stuff in the statblock for combat.

4e dragons are certainly NOT just big dumb flying lizards, unless the DMs decide that the creature is just the statblock. That would be true for any edition.

Here are just three paragraphs from the Blue Dragon entry in Draconomicon: Chromatic



This oooooooooozes great ideas for non-combat RP moments, but big dumb flying lizards? Nah....

That is a good point about 4E, it has started to spread some of that non-combat info out into newer books, but that's also a problem for me.

With Pathfinder, I get all the metallics and chromatics, their stats, and their flavor and rp info in one book. With 4E, I need 2 Monster Manuals and 2 Draconomicons. I'm long burned out on the supplement treadmill so I'm far happier with 1 book that does the work of 4. (and so is my wallet)

 

[Scribble]

This can be done in the same amont of time with any number of free or pay programs in 3.5 most work just as well on pathfinder as well. So if he did it 15 mins by hand out of a book with paper saying "Oh yeah 5 mins baby with my program" is not the same thing, now if you can do the same thing with pen and paper out of a book in 5 min that be the same thing.

Slightly longer then 5 minutes, but 4e monsters are ridiculously easy to change the level on.

 

[ancientvaults]

I am not sure how extra books=better non-combat roleplaying. Before multiple dragon books we still had a lot of non-combat roleplaying. That is why it is called roleplaying. The statblock should be a representation of what happens when the conversation turns physical. In B/X D&D we had fun roleplaying without all of the fluff, it isn't that hard, you make it up on the fly.

edit (because I strayed from the context a bit): My group does play Pathfinder and we enjoy it. The only thing I don't really care for about Pathfinder is their messageboard.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

Slightly longer then 5 minutes, but 4e monsters are ridiculously easy to change the level on.

See if he had said it took me 8 minutes or so I would have said nothing, but comparing the time it takes something someone does by hand and the time it took you to do the same thing with a programe made to do just that is not the same thing.

Its like saying "I can run into town in less then 20 minutes!" then you going "Oh yeah, I can drive there in less then 5" It's just apples to oranges.

 

[LostSoul]

So colour me intrigued by your observation. Yes, it rings true, but I'd REALLY like to know what exactly in 3E brought about this sentiment in the veteran player base. I don't know. Nothing in the core rulebooks ever told me that as a DM I'm obliged to enlighten my players. Heck, last time one of the veterans was surprised that I didn't tell him the DC for his skill check. I wonder where the core books say I must announce the DC. And so on. What brought about this mentality?

If I had to guess, I'd say it has something to do with the increased number of codified tactical options and the complexity of character creation (coupled with system mastery).

 

[Scribble]

See if he had said it took me 8 minutes or so I would have said nothing, but comparing the time it takes something someone does by hand and the time it took you to do the same thing with a programe made to do just that is not the same thing.

Its like saying "I can run into town in less then 20 minutes!" then you going "Oh yeah, I can drive there in less then 5" It's just apples to oranges.

YEah, I was actually a little confused by that one myself, as it's not really a fair comparison...

That said, to me using the MB is kind of like doing simple math with a calculator. Easy enough on its own, but still the calculator is icing on the cake.

Also that said I think you'd find the 4e system for monsters is a little more friendly towards things like computer programs... In that you can generally swap out powers without it cascading down into the rest of the monster since they don't really "stack."

(Which means armed with the monster, a big constantly updating list of powers and a tool that lets me quickly and easily swap them... It's pretty awesome.)

 

[Dannager]

See if he had said it took me 8 minutes or so I would have said nothing, but comparing the time it takes something someone does by hand and the time it took you to do the same thing with a programe made to do just that is not the same thing.

Its like saying "I can run into town in less then 20 minutes!" then you going "Oh yeah, I can drive there in less then 5" It's just apples to oranges.

No, it's not.

He said that he could alter a monster to his liking in 15 minutes. I said that a 4e monster can be modified using the official program in 5.

Yes, he could use any number of 3rd party, feature-poor applications to mess around with the monster in 3.5, but they aren't official, they don't automatically contain every monster published, and they don't support the totally integrated power-swapping that makes using the Monster Builder so fantastic.

His point was that he could take 15 minutes to take that tremendous stat block and modify it to something he wants to use. My counterpoint was that I can take five minutes to do the same thing, but better polished.

 

[Vael]

Going back to the Pathfinder Dragon statblock ... I couldn't run that from the book, but as a hyperlinked computer page it was acceptable.