Pathfinder 1E Opinions on Pathfinder

[BryonD]

I suppose you can reject it as silly, if it makes you feel better.

But I have played with more than a few people that started their RPG gaming with 3e (and not AD&D, OD&D, 2e, BECMI, etc...) and this is exactly what the players acted like. It wasn't because they had bad DMs in the past, it was because they learned to DM and play with 3e and all the rules for PC creation, encounter design, monster design was totally transparent and if it was available for the BBEG NPC or the Monster, then the feat/spell/thingy was available to the players, or should be able to be replicated by the PCs.

Now, you may not have had this experience, but I have, and others have. And it's been posted about in myriad threads.

Many players and DMs exposed to D&D or RPGs prior to 3.x have had their learning start in a different paradigm, and therefore don't have these kinds of experiences, but they are there, for sure.

Rejecting his claim as silly is either being ignorant to experiences of other gaming tables, or it's just an attempt to dismiss a claim because you don't like what it says.

Myriad eh? That's cool.

Again, give me an actual example.
One of Monte's modules features a conjoined twin drow wizard / cleric. I never had a player ask to play a conjoined twin double character. I guess I just was fortunate to have good players.

I guess it would be called an outrageous abuse of rule zero to claim that this would be two characters, each with a significant limitation. If the issue ever came up. Which it did not.

I'm in no way ignorant of the claims. But I'll rebut that it has been challenged as not at all the standard state of affairs is the same myriad threads.

Yes, there are certainly people who have that problem. I don't question that. People do bring problems to the table and try to play against other people at the table, try to "win" D&D. If you are playing with people with counter-productive attitudes, you are going to be limited. There is more that can be achieved, but it takes a group that is like minded in their desire to get there.

3E does not impose this problem. It is silly to claim it does.
3E won't SAVE you from that problem. I guess maybe 4E will. So if you need to be saved, then you may need to settle for 4E.

You can blame it all on 3E, if it makes you feel better.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

Um this thread is supposed to be about pathfinder right?

How about those adventures? Is the pathfinder srd as good as the 3.5 hypertext srd?

ah yes

Well the official one is a bit better then the official 3.5 one but no it's not as good as d20 hypertext. However the only thing in the PRD that is in the book is the list of gods, everything else it open, also from what we have been told all the stuff from the Advanced player guide will also be open. Evey crunch part off anything they have made is also open with the exception of two monster which they printed with permission

For me tow of the best changes have been, the skill system and CMB set up. Those I would use even if I had not switched.

 

[ancientvaults]

Nope you didnt misunderstand at all, 15 minutes to copy down what I needed for combat on a 8.5 x 11 college ruled sheet of loose leaf paper. I didnt add a template or change the monster in any way. I just made sure I had the special abilities and spells DC saves, damages and ranges. I didn't write everything out word for word, but in enough shorthand so that I'd know what they do.

I also wanted to point out that this method is the most INCONVENIENT way for me to do this. Which is why I did it this way just to see how long it would take using the least optimal method and it was still only 15 min.

Usually, I open the PDF's that I want to use and copy and paste what I need from there into a word document. From there I usually edit things down, then when I'm done I print and I'm done. Needless to say doing it this way usually goes a lot quicker.

Gee, you really like to make things difficult for yourself, don't you?
We use the D20PFSRD , which makes a copy and paste take about 30 seconds. If it wasn't for this resource, any type of gaming for 3.x+ would be pretty pointless for my group since we normally play oldschool games (and thus don't like to get bogged down with looking things up all the time), and the simulacrums (most of them) have text as well as pdf copies of the rules for free.

 

[Dannager]

Yep it means without that program your in the same boat as him. So your 5 mins time frame is pointless. He knows how long it takes him you do not, you have no base time of comparison at all. The question had nothing to do with programs but how much time it took. Simply put you have no ideal how long it would take. The DDI is not a part of the core books it's a useful program but has zero to do with how long it takes you to prep without a computer.

Er...you're talking to a guy whose big D&D project is converting Paizo adventures to 4th Edition. Part of this project involves creating dozens of custom monsters, usually upwards of 20 per adventure. I began the project before the Monster Builder was even announced. Even now, I do most of it without the Monster Builder, using only the Compendium as a guide.

I know exactly how long it takes me. I can create an entirely new monster in 15 minutes, and this includes formatting it into the stat block template.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

See that would have been relevant. The DDI does it for me, not so much

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Gee, you really like to make things difficult for yourself, don't you?
We use the D20PFSRD , which makes a copy and paste take about 30 seconds. If it wasn't for this resource, any type of gaming for 3.x+ would be pretty pointless for my group since we normally play oldschool games (and thus don't like to get bogged down with looking things up all the time), and the simulacrums (most of them) have text as well as pdf copies of the rules for free.

D00d, You beat me too it!
I was about to respond to Dannager with the D20PFSRD thing! If I wanted to yeah, I could totally keep my MacBook Pro open at the game table and run the dragon "out of the book" just like that.

"oh noes!! all of these special abilities! Whatever will I do?!? Wait? they're hyperlinked? HO! HO! Let me open Ghost Sound up in another tab!! HA! So that's what it does! Hyperlinks! BRILLIANT!!!
And Free!!!! And downloadable to my MacBook Pro!! (unlike the DDI (without using Boot Camp or Parallels) which is a moot point anyway because I dont play 4E!!!) YAY!!!"

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I can create an entirely new monster in 15 minutes, and this includes formatting it into the stat block template.

Yay!

 

[Aus_Snow]

Well, you don't
4e dragons are basically big clever flying lizards

They're all about damage _and_ status effects in combat.

Ooh aah.

I had hoped it would be blindingly obvious enough to what I was referring. Evidently not.

Anyway, you can think what you want about 4e

How very gracious of you. And wow, I might just do that.

I definitely remember a time when after every new 3e book release threads would be full of people pointing out the many, often minor, mistakes in stat blocks. Times seem to have changed

The errata for the 4e PHB alone is a hideous thing to behold. Times might have changed, but if so, I do wonder in which way(s). . .

I am not sure if comparing the statblock of a PF dragon and the statblock of a 4e dragon is a fair example regarding it's non-combat abilities.

Muh? How is it *unfair* to compare the Adult Blue Dragon (CR 13) from the Pathfinder Bestiary with the Adult Blue Dragon (Level 13, I believe?) from the 4e Monster Manual. . . in any way, shape or form? I mean, really.

And yeah, I'm sure the fluff in however many additional, non-core splatbooks is superb. Great. But where does that place those guys who just buy the core books, like even if they buy every set of core (PHB !, II, III, and so on, for all three) - what does the MM tell them about dragons and what they can do? Hm, I think I'll stick with my previous assessment, thanks.

Look, I am fully aware that anyone can change anything they like about any RPG, including adding in anything they want to. Yes. However, many people use *much* of a given RPG as is, if not all in some cases. It's easier, quicker, less fuss, etc., etc. And wny not. You're buying books in the first place because you want some work done for you ahead of time, right?

So when a person new to 4e sees that a dragon can only go roar, stomp, crush, chomp - what are they to think?

Indeed.

 

[Dannager]

D00d, You beat me too it!
I was about to respond to Dannager with the D20PFSRD thing! If I wanted to yeah, I could totally keep my MacBook Pro open at the game table and run the dragon "out of the book" just like that.

Now, see, this is a great argument. Having a computer at the table with a comprehensive, hyperlinked database of everything you need at your fingertips is a huge timesaver. A click or two is a tremendous improvement over flipping through the pages of two separate books.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

Don't forget D20PFSRD has a firefox search plugin. Which is super handy